Best 3rd baseman ever

[wlu_lax6]

Brooks Robinson passed away...

[Pruitt IV]

One of my childhood heroes.

22 straight gold gloves!

[EnochRoot]

My mother grew up an O's fan by following them on the radio when she was a teenager (she actually listened to WBAL come in clear at night up in NY (south of Albany)). Brooks was her 'crush'.

Amazing to think about it - that guy played from 1955 to 1977. Or, my mom was 13 when he started and I was 7 when he retired. All in an Oriole uniform.

Not much of a eulogy, but everybody who ever came across him spoke well of him. On the one hand, greatest third baseman of all time, and on the other an equally genuine person.

RIP.

[L-Jam3]

Hot take: Brooks Robinson defended his position better than any other player defended theirs.

RIP

[sancarlos]

Great defensive player, great longevity, great guy. But, greatest 3rd baseman, ever? His offensive stats weren’t great.

[brian]

Great defensive player, great longevity, great guy. But, greatest 3rd baseman, ever? His offensive stats weren’t great.

Yeah agree. If we’re talking best defensive 3rd baseman probably a slam dunk. Best defensive baseball player ever you’d have a strong argument. But you still have to do something with the bat. (And his batting was very, very good to be clear but not elite especially by modern standards.

[L-Jam3]

It’s Schmidt and Matthews on top of the mountain, then he’s in the Beltre, Chipper, Boggs, Brett tier if you value his otherworldly defense. And then immediately under them is the Santo/Rolen/Nettles group.

A-Rod’s 3B years are somewhere, just not sure where. He spent more of his career at 3B then SS IIRC.

[Gunpowder]

It is quite easy to argue that Beltre was a better overall player. Hell you can probably argue for Nolan Arenado already. Still a huge name tho.

[EnochRoot]

The problem is there really isn't a clear cut, greatest offensive 3B of all time the way that Brooks is the greatest defensive 3B of all time.

That and the fact he played his entire career for the O's helping to lead them to four WS in six years (winning two of them).

I've heard dozens of stories that he was a good guy, too.

Having said that, I'd put him behind Schmidt, Matthews and yeah, Beltre. I'd slot Boggs/Chipper/Brett behind them because all three of them were a notch below Beltre defensively.

Completely un-researched.

[brian]

Gun to head I’d vote Beltre as best 3B ever.

[EnochRoot]

Gun to head I’d vote Beltre as best 3B ever.

Beltre's best season was in the tail end of the steroid era, and didn't his name pop on a list of MLB players Selig said don't worry about it because it was a trial balloon to see if more strident testing / penalties would be required?

I like Beltre, but Schmidt had a higher peak (relative to era). Beltre played longer, but Schmidt was better.

I could see sliding Mathews back cuz of his D, but Schmidt belongs on top.

[wlu_lax6]

So I have 2 handwritten thank you notes from Brooks to my dad. My dad was not moved by celebrates and athletes...except for Brooks. My dad treated a friend of his and Brooks wrote him a amazing thank you letter after his friend passed.

[mister d]

I wish we’d had the Brooks Robinson conversation before he died. Let’s make it the Ozzie Smith conversation or something maybe?



(It’s the same thing as Rolen/Andruw where like 9+7 is somehow infinitely less than 10+5.)

[brian]

Also fuck that Beltre/roids insinuation unless you got some fucking proof. Could say the same thing about Cabrera and no one is saying that because he regressed “naturally”. Fuck your insinuations.

[brian]

“Here’s a guy who was good while other guys were cheating” is not the slam dunk argument you think it is.

[mister d]

Just because Beltre is the topic here … I couldn’t possibly know if Brooks or Beltre were better, but don’t believe it’s even logically possible Brooks was worth 1.67x defensively over 2nd place Beltre in less career innings. Especially knowing players like Robinson were likely baselines for how any defensive stats were even retroactively calculated.

I believe he was great based on people who saw him, but there’s no way he’s the best ever on slightly better than average offense.

[mister d]

Also Brian and his pro-ARod stance is right about proving the negative in a PED era.

[DaveInSeattle]

Beltre was a good player...but IMHO there's no way he's in the same league as Brooks Freakin' Robinson. Or Schmidt.

[EnochRoot]

Also fuck that Beltre/roids insinuation unless you got some fucking proof. Could say the same thing about Cabrera and no one is saying that because he regressed “naturally”. Fuck your insinuations.

Right back at you with your indignation.

Given the era he peaked? He's asterisked. Just the way it is.

[mister d]

Beltre was a good player...but IMHO there's no way he's in the same league as Brooks Freakin' Robinson. Or Schmidt.

Respectfully, how much did you see of a guy whose last full season was 1975? I know the reputation, but offensive numbers can’t lie because there are contemporaries so it comes down to believing no one has ever walked onto a field who was less than 1.5x as good at 3B of all positions.

[EnochRoot]

Just because Beltre is the topic here … I couldn’t possibly know if Brooks or Beltre were better, but don’t believe it’s even logically possible Brooks was worth 1.67x defensively over 2nd place Beltre in less career innings. Especially knowing players like Robinson were likely baselines for how any defensive stats were even retroactively calculated.

I believe he was great based on people who saw him, but there’s no way he’s the best ever on slightly better than average offense.

Thoughts?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... reer.shtml

[mister d]

Right back at you with your indignation.

Given the era he peaked? He's asterisked. Just the way it is.

That’s the point. They all are including the pitchers he faced every game. It’s the era, not the individuals.

[EnochRoot]

Right back at you with your indignation.

Given the era he peaked? He's asterisked. Just the way it is.

That’s the point. They all are including the pitchers he faced every game. It’s the era, not the individuals.

It's also the individuals. I don't buy for a second that because they were all doing it, all's cool. The #s were freakin gaudy.

[mister d]

Thoughts?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... reer.shtml

Is that not what I just said? TZR didn’t exist when Brooks played and any stat created with retroactive effect would use players like him as a baseline. You don’t develop a defensive stat in 2005 that says “whoa shit, this says Santo was actually superior to Robinson” because that’s the end of your stat and probably more if you previously mattered.

[mister d]

It's also the individuals. I don't buy for a second that because they were all doing it, all's cool. The #s were freakin gaudy.

Right, some weren’t and get massively fucked over, but we have no idea who they were. Maddux might have been juiced out his ears and Palmeiro caught that one bad test. It’s unknowable.

[mister d]

Just pretend I’m arguing “there’s no fuckin’ chance Jeter ever did it” and you’ll see my point. No one knows.

[EnochRoot]

Just pretend I’m arguing “there’s no fuckin’ chance Jeter ever did it” and you’ll see my point. No one knows.

You're assuming Judge's 62 HR are clean.

[The Sybian]

Howard Johnson was the greatest 3B of all time. End of discussion.

[brian]

Just pretend I’m arguing “there’s no fuckin’ chance Jeter ever did it” and you’ll see my point. No one knows.

This (and your previous points) are all super fair but I maintain that staining a specific guy without evidence is the highest of bullshit. And I’d defend Jeter and Maddux in the same way. In fact slyly suggesting Beltre juiced while not saying the same about say Thome could be construed as anti-Latino.

[brian]

That was not directed at MrD clearly btw

[EnochRoot]

Thoughts?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/lead ... reer.shtml

Is that not what I just said? TZR didn’t exist when Brooks played and any stat created with retroactive effect would use players like him as a baseline. You don’t develop a defensive stat in 2005 that says “whoa shit, this says Santo was actually superior to Robinson” because that’s the end of your stat and probably more if you previously mattered.

They would grade all players on all balls hit into play in the retrosheet era, which from what I can tell goes back to 1919.

How does that penalize Brooks?

[mister d]

I’m saying the opposite. If the attempt to retroactively quantify defense said Brooks/Ozzie weren’t elite relative to everyone else, that stat would be scrapped.

[EnochRoot]

Just pretend I’m arguing “there’s no fuckin’ chance Jeter ever did it” and you’ll see my point. No one knows.

This (and your previous points) are all super fair but I maintain that staining a specific guy without evidence is the highest of bullshit. And I’d defend Jeter and Maddux in the same way. In fact slyly suggesting Beltre juiced while not saying the same about say Thome could be construed as anti-Latino.

I'm not slyly suggesting anything. The insinuations are coming from inside the house!

[mister d]

That was not directed at MrD clearly btw

Yeah, but I don’t agree in general. No rumors doesn’t equal clean because nothing should equal clean. Beltre was a massive outlier, same as Anderson or whoever. And being consistently good with no high peaks isn’t less suspicious than peaks. Everyone who never tested positive is equally suspicious if we’re doing suspicions.

[EnochRoot]

I’m saying the opposite. If the attempt to retroactively quantify defense said Brooks/Ozzie weren’t elite relative to everyone else, that stat would be scrapped.

Data can be misinterpreted, yes. I am sure there are many attempts that have been scrapped, and clearly some evaluations are (much) better than others. But if you have the same datasource, I don't see the problem.

[mister d]

Do you think there’s any data on Brooks to his left versus right versus in versus back?

[EnochRoot]

Do you think there’s any data on Brooks to his left versus right versus in versus back?

So, you're willing to discard data that doesn't suit you?

[Gunpowder]

Steroids weren't invented in the 1990s.

[rass]

But can we agree that "Human Vacuum Cleaner" is a horrible nickname? He must have taken shit for that, right?

"Brooksie used to take ground balls on his knees,'' said former teammate Frank Robinson. "He practiced taking balls off his chest.''

C'mon!

[Ryan]

Because the immediate reaction is to think of defense first with 3rd base, I think it's reasonable to have a different answer for "who is the best 3rd baseman ever?" and "who is the greatest player to play 3rd base?". Brooks Robinson ain't it for that second one though. His average season WAR is closer to Tim Naehring than Adrian Beltre.