The Swamp

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:11 am Mother in law lives in Catonsville. I can’t in good conscience suggest to my wife to drive west through the city cuz the effort to run I-70 downtown died off a long time ago. We have to either take the tunnel, drive downtown to 95 at OPCY, or take 95N to 695W around the city to CVille.

It’d be easier to just change our departure times.

Not minimizing the huge pain in the ass this is for you. Come across to 83 N take that up to 695W? Or 83 N to Northern Pwy to Liberty Road to Rolling Road to Route 40? Sucks all around.

It's not just road traffic greatly affected. With that bridge in the water, ships now can't get to nearly any of Baltimore ports. Gonna be a huge pain in the ass with a huge financial hit.

bfj wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:39 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:11 am Mother in law lives in Catonsville. I can’t in good conscience suggest to my wife to drive west through the city cuz the effort to run I-70 downtown died off a long time ago. We have to either take the tunnel, drive downtown to 95 at OPCY, or take 95N to 695W around the city to CVille.

It’d be easier to just change our departure times.

Not minimizing the huge pain in the ass this is for you. Come across to 83 N take that up to 695W? Or 83 N to Northern Pwy to Liberty Road to Rolling Road to Route 40? Sucks all around.

Yeah - I really don’t mean to make this about me and our micro-logistics nightmare. We’ll figure something out.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:38 am Only people missing are the construction crew - officials and crew did the amazing work as to traffic -

Reading this is a reminder that ordinary people doing their jobs with a sense of professionalism and purpose are the ones that keep the day-to-day operations of a society moving forward. And when an extraordinary situation calls for decisive action, it’s those same ordinary people who step up time and time again to save the day.

Hopefully, it also puts to rest the idiots on social media who are screaming that this is a terrorist attack. Terrorists don't call in maydays. Terrorists don't blow up bridges at 2 am. Jesus.

Shirley wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:45 am It's not just road traffic greatly affected. With that bridge in the water, ships now can't get to nearly any of Baltimore ports. Gonna be a huge pain in the ass with a huge financial hit.

Amazon has an huge warehouse right by there. Amazon packages and new car shipments will be delayed for sure. Lots of business going on in those ports.

Perhaps dont build a shitty tinker toy bridge over key access to your international shipping port with trillions in commerce?

I met a guy that piloted ships in an out of port of new orleans. has to be a pretty shitty feeling. your only job is not to destroy access to the port. u dumped the load... no problem, insurance. You block access to the port for a year... well, might get a tracfone and make a run for the woods

Just another example of this country's "fuck it" attitude when it comes to infrastructure.

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:54 pm Perhaps dont build a shitty tinker toy bridge over key access to your international shipping port with trillions in commerce?

I met a guy that piloted ships in an out of port of new orleans. has to be a pretty shitty feeling. your only job is not to destroy access to the port. u dumped the load... no problem, insurance. You block access to the port for a year... well, might get a tracfone and make a run for the woods

Do you have any idea how much force those cargo ships carry?

A simple lesson in physics would tell you there isn’t a bridge on the planet that wouldn’t have faced significant / similar damage.

The next bridge (as I already mentioned) will likely have a wider shipping lane (between the main support pillars), and also concrete-deterrent pylons that go out at least a ¼ mi in both directions to help the ship navigate under the bridge.

The questions I have that should be asked / answered are:

1) When did the ship issue its mayday call?

2) When did the ship drop its anchor? It apparently was at an angle, which suggests it was dropped very close to impact.

These questions and potentially the answers to them suggest the ship may have been trying to mitigate the issues before shooting the flare into the sky and dropping anchor. Maybe a half mile from the bridge after the first systems failure?

Note: I await CISA’s report on this too. Shipping is one of the 18 sectors that makeup the country’s critical infrastructure.

Im no physician (ba dum pum) but that things a pretty shitty bridge. Straight jersey barriers instead of... sides? More jersey barriers instead of a median. No pedestrian or bike access that I see. Needs a paint job. Not the best.

The 'best' still collapses when hit by a fucking cargo ship.

Stop that. You have no idea. Youre not a physican

ok they should paint the next one red. red bridges don't collapse

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:19 pm Im no physician (ba dum pum) but that things a pretty shitty bridge. Straight jersey barriers instead of... sides? More jersey barriers instead of a median. No pedestrian or bike access that I see. Needs a paint job. Not the best.

The bridge is part of the freakin interstate system, so no, there was no pedestrian / bike lane.

I guess this is your wont, but the bridge was built in 1977, and I think it’s worth mentioning that it was built 3 years before the Sunshine Skyway collapse. You see, there’s a body of knowledge for engineering and design principles for things like bridges that grows over time.

The ships logs will tell a lot.

Those ships might only be going like 8 knots or so, but they weigh dozens of thousands of tons. That's a tremendous amount of force, especially colliding in a relativity small impact area creates massive puncture pressure. It's steel, dude. Not adamantium.

Am I wrong that the GW bridge is i95 and has separate bike and pedestrian access? Anyway enough with the engineering opinions unless you wish to show your work.

Right, but the answer is in Enoch's detailed post... You can and should mitigate against the risk of a catastrophic issue on a these container ships. As mentioned, if you've never been near one, you might not get the scale. This things are fucking massive.

And just like a freight train, once you get them up to even a low speed cruise, there's no way to stop them.

HaulCitgo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:39 pm Am I wrong that the GW bridge is i95 and has separate bike and pedestrian access? Anyway enough with the engineering opinions unless you wish to show your work.

It is and does indeed. With that said, it's "owned" by the Port Authority, so... shrug emoji.

3 million pounds of force. The boat is like a 1000 foot skyscraper turned on its side. There is one thing that can probably stop that with certainty and with minimal yielding. It's called land.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:03 pm Just another example of this country's "fuck it" attitude when it comes to infrastructure.

This.

And I say that because there are bridges and bridges and bridges everywhere across this country.

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:51 pm 3 million pounds of force. The boat is like a 1000 foot skyscraper turned on its side. There is one thing that can probably stop that with certainty and with minimal yielding. It's called land.

Yes...this. Seeing the people trying to say that the bridge was poorly constructed, or should have had "fenders/barriers" are being ridiculous.

When we are out sailing in Puget Sound, you'll see those fully loaded container ships heading into either Seattle or Tacoma, and they are MASSIVE. And usually going really fast.

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:29 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:51 pm 3 million pounds of force. The boat is like a 1000 foot skyscraper turned on its side. There is one thing that can probably stop that with certainty and with minimal yielding. It's called land.

Yes...this. Seeing the people trying to say that the bridge was poorly constructed, or should have had "fenders/barriers" are being ridiculous.

When we are out sailing in Puget Sound, you'll see those fully loaded container ships heading into either Seattle or Tacoma, and they are MASSIVE. And usually going really fast.

I was shocked at the size of some of the boats on the ferry ride from Bremerton to Seattle.

A_B wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:51 pm 3 million pounds of force. The boat is like a 1000 foot skyscraper turned on its side. There is one thing that can probably stop that with certainty and with minimal yielding. It's called land.

See, e.g., Exxon Valdez. (I think we are right around the anniversary of that maritime disaster.)

FWIW, Virginia governor saying they can take the Baltimore bound cargo down in Norfolk. Still significant supply chain issues, but not like a catastrophic* level thing. And I don't know what Wilmington DE's capacity is.

* - I'm sure many of you guys know, catastrophic in engineering terms means total failure of whatever you're referring to... I had to get the engineers here to stop calling pipe breaks as "catastrophic failures" bc it freaked out the public.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:16 pm FWIW, Virginia governor saying they can take the Baltimore bound cargo down in Norfolk. Still significant supply chain issues, but not like a catastrophic* level thing. And I don't know what Wilmington DE's capacity is.

* - I'm sure many of you guys know, catastrophic in engineering terms means total failure of whatever you're referring to... I had to get the engineers here to stop calling pipe breaks as "catastrophic failures" bc it freaked out the public.

The increased volume of loaded semi-trailer trucks NB on 95 through the Inner Harbor tunnel in order to drop off goods at the Amazon, UPS, FedEx, Under Armour, Home Depot dist centers is gonna be through the roof. Not that it already isn’t ridiculous now. Get the NG in here with some help from the Army to get that steel out of the water by the early next week.

Perhaps worse, HAZMATS are going to have to travel the opposite direction around the beltway in a much more heavily populated region (at least I believe it to be).

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:59 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:16 pm FWIW, Virginia governor saying they can take the Baltimore bound cargo down in Norfolk. Still significant supply chain issues, but not like a catastrophic* level thing. And I don't know what Wilmington DE's capacity is.

* - I'm sure many of you guys know, catastrophic in engineering terms means total failure of whatever you're referring to... I had to get the engineers here to stop calling pipe breaks as "catastrophic failures" bc it freaked out the public.

The increased volume of loaded semi-trailer trucks NB on 95 through the Inner Harbor tunnel in order to drop off goods at the Amazon, UPS, FedEx, Under Armour, Home Depot dist centers is gonna be through the roof. Not that it already isn’t ridiculous now. Get the NG in here with some help from the Army to get that steel out of the water by the early next week.

Perhaps worse, HAZMATS are going to have to travel the opposite direction around the beltway in a much more heavily populated region (at least I believe it to be).

Depends a bit on the location of the region’s large logistics’ warehouses. Norfolk port —-> warehouses, instead of Baltimore port —1> warehouses.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:59 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:16 pm FWIW, Virginia governor saying they can take the Baltimore bound cargo down in Norfolk. Still significant supply chain issues, but not like a catastrophic* level thing. And I don't know what Wilmington DE's capacity is.

* - I'm sure many of you guys know, catastrophic in engineering terms means total failure of whatever you're referring to... I had to get the engineers here to stop calling pipe breaks as "catastrophic failures" bc it freaked out the public.

The increased volume of loaded semi-trailer trucks NB on 95 through the Inner Harbor tunnel in order to drop off goods at the Amazon, UPS, FedEx, Under Armour, Home Depot dist centers is gonna be through the roof. Not that it already isn’t ridiculous now. Get the NG in here with some help from the Army to get that steel out of the water by the early next week.

Perhaps worse, HAZMATS are going to have to travel the opposite direction around the beltway in a much more heavily populated region (at least I believe it to be).

100% the hazmats will be going through a much denser population now.

sancarlos wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:15 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:59 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:16 pm FWIW, Virginia governor saying they can take the Baltimore bound cargo down in Norfolk. Still significant supply chain issues, but not like a catastrophic* level thing. And I don't know what Wilmington DE's capacity is.

* - I'm sure many of you guys know, catastrophic in engineering terms means total failure of whatever you're referring to... I had to get the engineers here to stop calling pipe breaks as "catastrophic failures" bc it freaked out the public.

The increased volume of loaded semi-trailer trucks NB on 95 through the Inner Harbor tunnel in order to drop off goods at the Amazon, UPS, FedEx, Under Armour, Home Depot dist centers is gonna be through the roof. Not that it already isn’t ridiculous now. Get the NG in here with some help from the Army to get that steel out of the water by the early next week.

Perhaps worse, HAZMATS are going to have to travel the opposite direction around the beltway in a much more heavily populated region (at least I believe it to be).

Depends a bit on the location of the region’s large logistics’ warehouses. Norfolk port —-> warehouses, instead of Baltimore port —1> warehouses.

Norfolk is a part of it, but then there are the northern ports as well. Not sure my point about the increase in the number of semis in the tunnel won't increase though since the cargo gets loaded onto trucks on the north side of the tunnel.

Not to minimize the tragedy that occurred, but The Wire season 2 came in handy at school today.

Tell me you showed the scene when the longshoreman brought the duck to the bar.

Really sorry but how can anyone focus on anything about traffic diversion or ships or infrastructure right now when all I can do is hear Baltimore people saying the word cargo over and over in my head.

L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:32 pm Tell me you showed the scene when the longshoreman brought the duck to the bar.

Hey kids, Ziggy’s cock was a prosthetic, it’s not real.

L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:32 pm Tell me you showed the scene when the longshoreman brought the duck to the bar.

Nope. S2E1 when Ziggy took his dick out.

bfj wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:46 pm

L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:32 pm Tell me you showed the scene when the longshoreman brought the duck to the bar.

Hey kids, Ziggy’s cock was a prosthetic, it’s not real.

I swear I didn’t see this post but goddamn it was obvious to the point where I wondered why producers chose not to save $ on props by just having Ziggy use a post-it that said “penis”.

Could Key Bridge collapse been avoided if container ship had tugboat guides?

It couldn't hurt.

Interesting interview with about the role/responsibilities of a Harbor Pilot:

I’ve captained ships into tight ports like Baltimore, and this is how captains like me work with harbor pilots to avoid deadly collisions

Anybody who’s watched Mighty Cruise Ships would know!

I think there’s also a show that covers container ships, but maybe that’s just YouTube.

Anyone else here have a dream last night that they were in a car that flew off a bridge over water?

I guess I woke up before the car actually hit the water. But I do remember making sure to lower the car's windows while we were in the air, because it might not work once we hit.

(I've been nervous about automatic windows ever since my upside-down-in-a-creek adventure in Idaho way back when. That car had the old-fashioned window cranks, which we were able to use to swim out of the car.)

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:07 pm But I do remember making sure to lower the car's windows while we were in the air, because it might not work once we hit.

(I've been nervous about automatic windows ever since my upside-down-in-a-creek adventure in Idaho way back when. That car had the old-fashioned window cranks, which we were able to use to swim out of the car.)

Have one of these in the car? https://autoquarterly.com/best-car-escape-tools/