The Swamp

Keg and Rass mentioned today the ending of Dances with Dragons -- Game of Thrones -- Spoiler thread needed.

If he's really dead, he's going full warg. Like the wilding skinchanger from the prologue that would seem to serve no purpose other than to describe how something like that might be possible.

My theory is also that he has warged into the direwolf at the moment of stabbing. I anticipate this being tied in at some point to the Bran story line, where Bran gets him back into human form from knowledge gained beyond the wall/children of the forest/cave info.

Oh, and why did he all of a sudden decide it was so imperative to march on Winterfell?

Oh thank god. Have been sitting on this for over a year now without anyone to discuss it with.

Hugely pissed off. I get that he can kill off anyone, but at some point, I kinda thought he had settled on a storyline/character to follow through to the end from the Starks. Guess not. If he is really dead (and, I guess, why not, as the others surely were), it becomes an exercise in what. the. fuck. to GRRM. I mean, why waste the time through all those books just to kill him back there. So frustrating.

Its just hard to believe GRM is going to kill him off for good. The theory that JS was Rhaegar and Lyanna's child whose combined blood lines would unite Westeros, and then join with Danerys' forces (after initially fighting) to take on the white walkers seemed to be the logical conclusion to the series. But, GRM likes to kill em off.

Hmmm...I had been hoping that Melisandre sent out a decoy JS to be killed (similar to how she did with Mance Rayder/Rattleshirt), but the warg theory you guys bring up is interesting and more plausible than what I had in mind.

I can't wait to see the Cersei walk of shame on screen...that whole chapter was insane.

How about the Varys appearance at the very end? F'n gangsta.

I started reading this book again, its amazing how many small details I missed when I flew by it the first time.

Yeah, pretty sure even hbo will have to tone down the walk of shame. Or else not go full Monty on the Brazilian. A completely bared vag still one line I don't think has been crossed in the nudity part of "respected" shows/movies.

Keg wrote:I started reading this book again, its amazing how many small details I missed when I flew by it the first time.

I think I need to read the last one or two again, too. I flew through all of them last summer.

I honestly don't think Martin actually knows how he is going to tie all of the threads together. Instead, he just keeps adding more and more storylines, characters, and settings. I think he's hoping that he will die before he is forced to complete the series.

In interviews he has said that he knows how it ends (bittersweet). I've also read that he told HBO how it ends to help the show with casting/storylines.

I would not read AFFC again, it's mostly Brienne doing a whole lot of nothing.

Yard of Junk wrote:Its just hard to believe GRM is going to kill him off for good. The theory that JS was Rhaegar and Lyanna's child whose combined blood lines would unite Westeros, and then join with Danerys' forces (after initially fighting) to take on the white walkers seemed to be the logical conclusion to the series. But, GRM likes to kill em ]

I still buy this theory. It makes so much more sense than just having him be ned's bastard. No way John Snow isn't coming back in some way. Plenty of folks have been brought back from the dead in one way or another.

Also, I can't watch the tv show. I watched the first season and was not that impressed. Too many things in the show spoil the books.

Who poisoned the locusts?

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/201 ... e-locusts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, they're making Shae much more sympathetic than in the books, no? To be honest, I was a little disappointed how she just turned out to be a whoo-re in the books, but maybe they've gone too far the other way on the show, assuming this is going to end the same way.

Keg wrote:Who poisoned the locusts?

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/201 ... e-locusts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't some here for this, but I read that when Keg posted it, and that guy's stuff is great. Especially for people like me who read too fucking fast.

Nice. I missed this thread before, because I hadn't read the books or seen the show. I've read all of the books now and am just starting the show.

Jon Snow - I don't think he's dead. Whenever a chapter ends with a character seemingly about to die - but not actually dead yet - they end up not actually dead. My thought was that he will get saved by either Ghost (most likely) or the hall full of wildings. Maybe both. Or hell, maybe Wun Wun who's right there and already angry - he likes Jon Snow.

Of course, he's gravely wounded already, but Melisandre can save him.

But, I like the warg theory. That's a possibility, but I'd really prefer if he stays a man. Maybe he can use Ghost's body to maintain his strength while his own body slowly heals.

Either way, there's pretty much NO way that Jon Snow is gone. No way. It's one thing to kill off Ned Stark, but there's really no replacement for Jon Snow.

rass wrote:So, they're making Shae much more sympathetic than in the books, no? To be honest, I was a little disappointed how she just turned out to be a whoo-re in the books, but maybe they've gone too far the other way on the show, assuming this is going to end the same way.

I guess that worked, so far. The upcoming scene in the Tower of the Hand is going to hurt.

I'm hoping we get to the Tower of the Hand scene next Sunday night..... it should be outstanding.

I'm going to guess that gets pushed back at least three more episodes. If it was me, I'd end the season with that scene. I'm not sure how much of the action at the Wall we're going to get this season. I guess you-know-who coming to the rescue up there would be a fitting finale, too. Or they could end it like the book with Lady Stoneheart's reveal. Actually after writing all that out, I bet they go with that last one. Only question is if they skip ahead and have her capture Brienne and Pod and not just a couple of random Frey's.

Regardless, I'm sure the trial by combat scene and the scene we're discussing end up in different episodes, so it will be at least two weeks.

Yard of Junk wrote:I'm hoping we get to the Tower of the Hand scene next Sunday night..... it should be outstanding.

That may end being as shocking to people as the Red Wedding was.

It just clicked this morning that the season finale, and presumably the end of Tyrion's time in captivity, will be airing on Father's Day. How nice.

rass wrote:It just clicked this morning that the season finale, and presumably the end of Tyrion's time in captivity, will be airing on Father's Day. How nice.

Ironic!

Since Carwash is still sorting out his thoughts and hasn't bumped it yet...

I think the battle at the wall would have worked better as a whole had they been able to include the encounter with Mance and Stannis' arrival in last week's episode. Last week's ending was pretty anti-climactic in the moment, and even moreso after the beginning of last night's episode.

I'll trust that GRRM has no great plans for Jojen (wasn't he (Jojen) convinced he was going to die anyway), so fine, though they should have stuck a little more with the book for the look of the three eyed crow. Just give me a little more than an old guy sitting on some branches. That scene outside was pretty cool otherwise.

The Hound/Brienne fight bugged me at first just because <adjusts glasses without lenses> it wasn't in the book, but it was well done and pretty much left all of the participants and spectators where they needed to be. Maybe they could have staged it on an actual path/road instead of an unmarked mountain so it didn't seem quite so random that they bumped into each other (I know they were headed to/from the same place).

Also, fucking Pod.

Tyrion's escape. The reveal of the true nature of Tyrion's "whore" bride was huge in the book, but TV Tyrion didn't seem to be as hung up on that as book Tyrion. It definitely gave him extra reason to climb up the tower. My biggest issue is that I felt (and I could be wrong here, as I haven't read the book recently) that Varys sort of lead him into going to the tower, knowing exactly what Tyrion would find. I guess there is no guarantee that Tyrion was going kill Tywin and not the other way around, but the results seemed to be right in line with Varys' goals (once they become a little clear in later books).

Also, I'm not sure what Tyrion is going spend all of his time mumbling to himself without the "where whores go" line.

My biggest issue, and this is perhaps Lena Headey's fault for dropping a hint a couple of months ago, was no Lady Stoneheart. I thought that would have been a pretty badass final scene, and was expecting to see it, and was letdown when it didn't happen.

Okay, here are my thoughts:

This was the most disappointed I've been in an episode since I started reading the books (midway through last season). I don't want to come across as a snobby book guy, because I think they've adapted most of the big moments superbly (the Red Wedding, Joffrey's death, the Oberyn/Mountain duel).

The biggest problem here was that they held off too many major developments until the last episode, and most of them came across as really rushed. Most of the dialogue was expository and the character interactions weren't given enough time to breathe.

The Brienne/Hound fight was the best part of the episode, and like rass said, was a good example of making a change from the books that still seemed to grow organically from the plotlines, and left everyone where they needed to be in the end.

The arrival of Stannis in the North was good, but agreed that they should have found time for it at the end of the last episode. I also really liked the scenes between Jon and the captured Tormund, and Ygritte's burial. They were the type of measured, character-driven scenes that this episode needed more of.

Everything involving Cersei this episode was terrible, and a consequence of moving things around and/or pointless deviation. Being eager to turn the Mountain into her zombie-champion for no real reason at this point, persisting with the Jamie relationship even though her cheerleading for Tyrion's death should have made them irreconcilable, and finally her revelation to Tywin, which is made almost immediately irrelevant. They seem to be turning her from a bitchy-but-rational character to someone who is evil purely for the sake of being evil.

The Harryhausen-esque skeletons in the Bran scene were cool, but the Child of the Forest with her nature grenades and terrible line readings was lame. I haven't gotten to that point in the books yet, but apparently a lot of people were disappointed in Bloodraven's appearance, where instead of a guy grown into a tree he just looked like an old David Carradine propped up in a chair.

The Tyrion scenes just seemed the most bungled to me, and again a result of time constraints. They really needed about twice as much time for those scenes to get the proper level of emotional impact. I get the idea of having Shae take the place of Tysha in Tyrion's heart--it's easier from a TV perspective to understand his attachment to someone we've seen on screen, rather than have him still be mad over something he mentioned once in passing three seasons ago--but without changing anything else, the motivation for his actions was really unclear. Also: apparently a crossbow bolt to the stomach isn't fatal, but one to the shoulder is.

And yeah, no Stoneheart was a massive, massive missed opportunity, something that would have taken the cliffhanger nature of past finales to a whole other level and left the fanbase talking for months. My guess is that it was left out for practical reasons--maybe it would have been easier to wait until they had the actress signed for a full new season rather than trying to bring her back now for just a few seconds of screen time. At least that is what I am hoping.

Got the new short story collection "Rogues" today. GRRM has a story about Daemon Targaryen. Reading it now.

Pretty good. About the events leading up to the Dance of the Dragons civil war that killed off most of the Targaryen Dragons.

Johnny Carwash wrote:Okay, here are my thoughts:

This was the most disappointed I've been in an episode since I started reading the books (midway through last season). I don't want to come across as a snobby book guy, because I think they've adapted most of the big moments superbly (the Red Wedding, Joffrey's death, the Oberyn/Mountain duel).

The biggest problem here was that they held off too many major developments until the last episode, and most of them came across as really rushed. Most of the dialogue was expository and the character interactions weren't given enough time to breathe.

I agree. It definitely felt rushed to me. I would have rather seen one full show devoted to the Kings Landing plot with Tyrion's escape, and a full show devoted to Stannis' arrival. I may have ruined it for myself by building it up to much prior to the event, but the producers had done such a great job with the other big moments, I really was expecting something spectacular. That said, still very good.

So Jon makes it back from Hardhome, saves the Wilding hordes, and gets jumped by his Brothers for his troubles. The little kid drives home the killing blow. Book it.

Only questions are whether they actually end the season on that (they seem to enjoy doing big shit like that in the second to last episode of the season)? Does Jon find out about Sansa and decide to head South at some point before he dies? Also, do we finally start seeing more of Ghost just before that, giving credence to the Jon-warg theory? Though every indication seems to be that Melisandre is heading South with Stannis. And if Jon is going to Hardhome, there can't be much reason for her to just hang out at the Wall. So either she for some reason decides to go with Jon to Hardhome, or Stannis gets his ass kicked and comes crawling back to the Wall before the end of the season (possible I guess, since we still have no idea what really happened to him in the books), or...I don't know. I was counting on her to be around to bring Jon's body back. Maybe he spends the rest of the series as a Direwolf?

So...Jon is dead but not really dead? Because if he is really the next Stark to go, what a waste of narrative in all the books. Of all the deaths, that one pissed me off the most.

He better not be dead, otherwise what a waste of time.

And of all the Starks to come back to life they wasted it on Catelyn. By the end of the last book I was pretty fed up with the story line. I have no idea how GRRM is going to finish the story with all of the changes being made to it by the show. Some of the show changes have been good, but they have definitely changed the story arc for many a character.

duff wrote:And of all the Starks to come back to life they wasted it on Catelyn. By the end of the last book I was pretty fed up with the story line. I have no idea how GRRM is going to finish the story with all of the changes being made to it by the show. Some of the show changes have been good, but they have definitely changed the story arc for many a character.

Maybe the showrunners said eff you to Martin and won't kill Jon.

tennbengal wrote:

duff wrote:And of all the Starks to come back to life they wasted it on Catelyn. By the end of the last book I was pretty fed up with the story line. I have no idea how GRRM is going to finish the story with all of the changes being made to it by the show. Some of the show changes have been good, but they have definitely changed the story arc for many a character.

Maybe the showrunners said eff you to Martin and won't kill Jon.

Gettin' stabbed. Book. It.

rass wrote:

tennbengal wrote:

duff wrote:And of all the Starks to come back to life they wasted it on Catelyn. By the end of the last book I was pretty fed up with the story line. I have no idea how GRRM is going to finish the story with all of the changes being made to it by the show. Some of the show changes have been good, but they have definitely changed the story arc for many a character.

Maybe the showrunners said eff you to Martin and won't kill Jon.

Gettin' stabbed. Book. It.

It's just such an easy way to shock at this point for Martin, that it just seems lazy. Plus, why spend five books just to kill Jon there? So pointless.

rass wrote:If he's really dead, he's going full warg. Like the wilding skinchanger from the prologue that would seem to serve no purpose other than to describe how something like that might be possible.

Standing by this. All of the warging stuff in book 5, plus all of the red priests/esses bringing people back to life stuff is going to have a payoff.

Jon Snow lives.

rass wrote:

rass wrote:If he's really dead, he's going full warg. Like the wilding skinchanger from the prologue that would seem to serve no purpose other than to describe how something like that might be possible.

Standing by this. All of the warging stuff in book 5, plus all of the red priests/esses bringing people back to life stuff is going to have a payoff.

Jon Snow lives.

I would hope so. But he lives in an animal because his body is dead? I hope not.

I would rather see Melisandre breath him back to life then have him spend the rest of the books as a direwolf. If that is the case, please GRRM, don't finish them and let the showrunners decide the fate of the remaining characters. At least we didn't get to meet the pussy prince of Dorne on his quest to wed the dragon queen. Although it would have been nice to see some more burnt flesh from dragons.

duff wrote:I would rather see Melisandre breath him back to life then have him spend the rest of the books as a direwolf. If that is the case, please GRRM, don't finish them and let the showrunners decide the fate of the remaining characters. At least we didn't get to meet the pussy prince of Dorne on his quest to wed the dragon queen. Although it would have been nice to see some more burnt flesh from dragons.

Agreed with all. Losing that stupid Dornish prince storyline from the books was a huge improvement.

I was kidding about the spending the rest of the series in a Direwolf thing. Though I do fully expect that's where he'll be when we next catch up with him.

rass wrote:So Jon makes it back from Hardhome, saves the Wilding hordes, and gets jumped by his Brothers for his troubles. The little kid drives home the killing blow. Book it.

Still happy with this prediction. They did a great job last night letting Jon know he made the right choice.

I wonder if Dany's story this season will end the same as the book? And if so, what happens to Tyrion. Does he end up stuck in the role Selmy had in the book? We already saw Tyrion deal with a plot similar to that when he was Joffrey's Hand. I hope he just grabs Drogon's tail and flies away with her. Though I guess Jorah and the greyscale is a bit of a wild card here, so maybe they have something else altogether in mind.

But I can’t get the acrid fumes of what happened to Shireen out of my throat so easily and, I would argue, neither should you. Look, I make no grand ultimatums here. I am drawing no lines in the sand, Ellaria or otherwise. I’m a dedicated watcher of the Thrones and that is not going to change. (Though if Olly the squire shivs Jon Snow next week in true Kenard/Omar fashion, I reserve the right to reconsider.)

Uh oh...

rass wrote:

But I can’t get the acrid fumes of what happened to Shireen out of my throat so easily and, I would argue, neither should you. Look, I make no grand ultimatums here. I am drawing no lines in the sand, Ellaria or otherwise. I’m a dedicated watcher of the Thrones and that is not going to change. (Though if Olly the squire shivs Jon Snow next week in true Kenard/Omar fashion, I reserve the right to reconsider.)

Uh oh...

It's gonna kill Greenwald, isn't it?