The Swamp

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sat May 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Avram wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?

I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.

Avram wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?

I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am

Avram wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?

I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.

I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.

Avram wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 1:40 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am

Avram wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?

I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.

I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.

It is still unclear what you mean. Whose levers of power? Dp you mean in Israel, because of course Zionists control the levers of power in Israel, Israel is a Majority Jewish country and the vast majority of Jews there believe in Zionism. Do you mean in the USA? Because if you say that Zionists (and the majority of Jews in the USA believe in Zionism) control the levers of power in the USA then by extension you are saying that both Israel and Jews control the lever of power here. Is that what you are saying. Some clarification would help me understand what you are trying to say.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 4:51 pm

Avram wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 1:40 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am

Avram wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?

I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.

I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.

It is still unclear what you mean. Whose levers of power? Dp you mean in Israel, because of course Zionists control the levers of power in Israel, Israel is a Majority Jewish country and the vast majority of Jews there believe in Zionism. Do you mean in the USA? Because if you say that Zionists (and the majority of Jews in the USA believe in Zionism) control the levers of power in the USA then by extension you are saying that both Israel and Jews control the lever of power here. Is that what you are saying. Some clarification would help me understand what you are trying to say.

I’d challenge the notion that a majority of Jews in America support Zionism as it’s practiced / defined in Israel. I don’t buy that for a second.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 7:17 am I’m talking about the levers of power controlling the fate of the Palestinians. I’m talking about a subjugated people. I’m talking as an agnostic when I find Zionism to be yet sanctimony perpetuated on humanity and I view Israel as a theocracy. You can rationalize it by suggesting some short term influence by ultra orthodox this or that, but I have no fucks to give about the inner workings of a religion. I’m too biased to have any left when the hand of man is once again conflated as the word of god. I’m so tired of that crap playing out everywhere you look.

Joe K wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 am Not to derail this back and forth but I find it very frustrating when acts of violence and economic subjugation towards Palestine are justified on the grounds that Hamas and/or the Palestinian people do not support the existence of the state of Israel. Does anyone still think that Netanyahu or his government actually supports a two-State solution? They wouldn’t be carving up the West Bamk with new settlements if that were the case. Given the obvious unwillingness of Israel’s government to allow a viable Palestinian State, why wouldn’t Palestinians find a single, majority Arab state to be an appealing option? Give them the prospect of a real two-state solution, and not just an open air prison like Gaza, and I bet you’d see attitudes towards the existence of Israel change quite a bit.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 2:45 pm Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.

Pruitt wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 4:12 pm

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 2:45 pm Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.

Also - TV comic says "cunt" is easier to understand than trademarks.

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Pruitt wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 4:12 pm

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu May 31, 2018 2:45 pm Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.

Also - TV comic says "cunt" is easier to understand than trademarks.

Hang on...so the offensive word was bleeped out when the show aired? And the crowd that were wearing shirts during the Election 2016 run-up saying 'fuck your feelings' are all butt-hurt? About a bleeped out word? Fuck the heck?

“Until we have all of the Democrats who are willing to take on the billionaire class, until we have all of the Democrats who are willing to fight for the American people and not for a handful of billionaires and giant corporations, then it’s going to stay an uphill fight."

Avram wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education

sancarlos wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm

Avram wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education

The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:15 pm

sancarlos wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm

Avram wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education

The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.

And get kids to the polls. 18-25.

Healthcare is such a slam dunk but the Democrats can't decide what type of healthcare they want? Single payer? Obamacare? something else?

Avram wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:07 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:15 pm

sancarlos wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm

Avram wrote: ↑Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education

The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.

And get kids to the polls. 18-25.

Healthcare is such a slam dunk but the Democrats can't decide what type of healthcare they want? Single payer? Obamacare? something else?

Even if they just run on "preserve the ACA so Trump doesn't gut it" will be a winner

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 pm almost everyone else from both political affiliations despise it. There are a lot of people who were legitimately harmed by Obamacare

P.D.X. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:36 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 pm almost everyone else from both political affiliations despise it. There are a lot of people who were legitimately harmed by Obamacare

k

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.

BSF21 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.

I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 pm

BSF21 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.

I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.

Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:12 pm

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 pm

BSF21 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.

I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.

Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.

sorry about that i did say it was complex and this is why it's not so easy for Democrats to just campaign on healthcare. They have to agree on what type of healthcare? The Bernie side will bring up Obamacare as the counter "obamacare isn't enough" to their proposed universal healthcare program.

on the republican side it's easy. healthcare is private.

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 pm

BSF21 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.

OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.

I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.

Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.

brian wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm That's fine. That's a fair concrete example of someone who was "hurt" by it I suppose, but I still maintain it helped countless more than those who might have disliked it. The elimination of being able to be turned down for insurance at any cost because of pre-existing conditions might have saved tens of thousands of lives alone. It's moot at this point anyway since the ACA is DOA. Maybe in the long run it'll be worth it if it ends up that single-payer comes out of all this bullshit, but as usual as a country our priorities are all out of wack. We should be able to easily afford health care for everyone, but the priority is more bombs, more bullets, more tax cuts for the rich. So fuck it.