The Swamp

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:55 am

EdRomero wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:00 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:44 am

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:20 pm So now we’re focused on the evils of Tik Tok? Fortunately, there are aren't any more important issues ongoing in our country, right? Right?

I mean, the critiques are fair, but they were also equally fair 4 or 5 years ago. And back then, Tik Tok wasn't nearly the behemoth it is today.

Seems similar to the attacks on Twitter before Musk destroyed it. Any large messaging platform that they can't buy or influence enough is a threat (which also relates to the importance of local media in another thread)

That's a different conversation though. TikTok is run out of Singapore by a Chinese national.

The irony though is if they're so concerned about bad actors shaping public opinion, they need to look in the fuckin mirror.

I haven't read up on the recent discussion, but I thought the problem with TikTok was all of the backdoors in the software that allow the Chinese government to hack phones and computers through the App. And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

Exactly, the issue is the ownership and control by the Chinese government. I'm not sure they really helped their case when they apparently sent out a push message to all Tik Tok users with the name and info of their local Congressman along with an easy button to call or message them. It's great to know that the Chinese government can so easily and quickly directly communicate to over 100 million Americans about political issues.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:20 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:55 am

EdRomero wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:00 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:44 am

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:20 pm So now we’re focused on the evils of Tik Tok? Fortunately, there are aren't any more important issues ongoing in our country, right? Right?

I mean, the critiques are fair, but they were also equally fair 4 or 5 years ago. And back then, Tik Tok wasn't nearly the behemoth it is today.

Seems similar to the attacks on Twitter before Musk destroyed it. Any large messaging platform that they can't buy or influence enough is a threat (which also relates to the importance of local media in another thread)

That's a different conversation though. TikTok is run out of Singapore by a Chinese national.

The irony though is if they're so concerned about bad actors shaping public opinion, they need to look in the fuckin mirror.

I haven't read up on the recent discussion, but I thought the problem with TikTok was all of the backdoors in the software that allow the Chinese government to hack phones and computers through the App. And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

There's backdoors in everything. But yes, that is the ultimate fear: China being able to infiltrate the platform, remain undetected while it escalates, and then ultimately exfiltrate the data it has stolen. China's engaged in advanced persistent threats in the past, too.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:20 am And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

To be fair, this isn't unique to Tik Tok...if there was no Tik Tok it would be something else.

GoodKarma wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:18 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:20 am And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

To be fair, this isn't unique to Tik Tok...if there was no Tik Tok it would be something else.

Right, that’s a parenting issue. If TikTok was owned by by the most idiotic American right-wing goober there should be no debate about it being allowed to continue.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:52 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:20 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:55 am

EdRomero wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:00 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:44 am

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:20 pm So now we’re focused on the evils of Tik Tok? Fortunately, there are aren't any more important issues ongoing in our country, right? Right?

I mean, the critiques are fair, but they were also equally fair 4 or 5 years ago. And back then, Tik Tok wasn't nearly the behemoth it is today.

Seems similar to the attacks on Twitter before Musk destroyed it. Any large messaging platform that they can't buy or influence enough is a threat (which also relates to the importance of local media in another thread)

That's a different conversation though. TikTok is run out of Singapore by a Chinese national.

The irony though is if they're so concerned about bad actors shaping public opinion, they need to look in the fuckin mirror.

I haven't read up on the recent discussion, but I thought the problem with TikTok was all of the backdoors in the software that allow the Chinese government to hack phones and computers through the App. And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

There's backdoors in everything. But yes, that is the ultimate fear: China being able to infiltrate the platform, remain undetected while it escalates, and then ultimately exfiltrate the data it has stolen. China's engaged in advanced persistent threats in the past, too.

I heard a podcast a few years ago with a cyber-security expert who back engineered the code, and he said TikTok was on a completely different level than anything he's ever seen.

And to GoodKarma's point, yes, kids will turn to the next app to rot their brains. And maybe I'm just an old man shouting at clouds, because I sound just like parents in the 50s who feared TV would rot their kids brains, or Boomer's yelling that video games would rot GenXer's brains. But it seems like TikTok is intentionally doing this, but maybe it isn't nefarious, just that they were the best at cracking the code to hook kids for financial gain rather than intentionally destroying the brains of a generation. It is telling that China strictly limits the hours TikTok is available and all content is educational or propaganda for the CCP.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:38 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:52 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:20 am

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:55 am

EdRomero wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:00 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:44 am

I mean, the critiques are fair, but they were also equally fair 4 or 5 years ago. And back then, Tik Tok wasn't nearly the behemoth it is today.

Seems similar to the attacks on Twitter before Musk destroyed it. Any large messaging platform that they can't buy or influence enough is a threat (which also relates to the importance of local media in another thread)

That's a different conversation though. TikTok is run out of Singapore by a Chinese national.

The irony though is if they're so concerned about bad actors shaping public opinion, they need to look in the fuckin mirror.

I haven't read up on the recent discussion, but I thought the problem with TikTok was all of the backdoors in the software that allow the Chinese government to hack phones and computers through the App. And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

There's backdoors in everything. But yes, that is the ultimate fear: China being able to infiltrate the platform, remain undetected while it escalates, and then ultimately exfiltrate the data it has stolen. China's engaged in advanced persistent threats in the past, too.

I heard a podcast a few years ago with a cyber-security expert who back engineered the code, and he said TikTok was on a completely different level than anything he's ever seen.

And to GoodKarma's point, yes, kids will turn to the next app to rot their brains. And maybe I'm just an old man shouting at clouds, because I sound just like parents in the 50s who feared TV would rot their kids brains, or Boomer's yelling that video games would rot GenXer's brains. But it seems like TikTok is intentionally doing this, but maybe it isn't nefarious, just that they were the best at cracking the code to hook kids for financial gain rather than intentionally destroying the brains of a generation. It is telling that China strictly limits the hours TikTok is available and all content is educational or propaganda for the CCP.

I think the Chinese government pushing a notification to millions of Americans filtered down to those users' local congressmen was simply a shot across the bow of the USS America. To the frustrated it's yet another example of stochastic terrorism. To the rest of us, it's holy fucking shit.

GoodKarma wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:18 am

The Sybian wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:20 am And I think on a societal level, it's warping kids' minds and sucking them into hours of mindless watching based on the algorithms and the constant cycling of one video into the next and they lose track of time.

To be fair, this isn't unique to Tik Tok...if there was no Tik Tok it would be something else.

Right now, there’s Facebook reels and Instagram reels.

Yeah. I accept that I could be an idiot (and its concerning to be on the same side as some of the far right), but this strikes me as facebook/twitter lobbying under the guise of national security? Like I wish all social media and especially targeting of kids would go away, but I doubt that's the case here.

I was listening to the latest Pod Save America with guest host Jane Coaston. She said that what's happening to TikTok with this bill is the exact same thing that happened with Grindr 4 years ago.

Grindr is being sold by Chinese owner after U.S. raises national security concerns

If TikTok is owned by an American asshole it's fine because the U.S. government can always force companies to bend to their will. Can't do that with China.

So once it's sold, the children's brains can continue to rot. America only cares about being in control, not about its population. It makes me laugh that the app told 100 million users who their representative is. Can't have that happen!

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:43 pm I was listening to the latest Pod Save America with guest host Jane Coaston. She said that what's happening to TikTok with this bill is the exact same thing that happened with Grindr 4 years ago.

Grindr is being sold by Chinese owner after U.S. raises national security concerns

If TikTok is owned by an American asshole it's fine because the U.S. government can always force companies to bend to their will. Can't do that with China.

So once it's sold, the children's brains can continue to rot. America only cares about being in control, not about its population. It makes me laugh that the app told 100 million users who their representative is. Can't have that happen!

Settle down easy, Ed (Snowden).

Johnnie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:43 pm I was listening to the latest Pod Save America with guest host Jane Coaston. She said that what's happening to TikTok with this bill is the exact same thing that happened with Grindr 4 years ago.

Grindr is being sold by Chinese owner after U.S. raises national security concerns

If TikTok is owned by an American asshole it's fine because the U.S. government can always force companies to bend to their will. Can't do that with China.

So once it's sold, the children's brains can continue to rot. America only cares about being in control, not about its population. It makes me laugh that the app told 100 million users who their representative is. Can't have that happen!

My daughter said she never got a notification.

Several of you guys are completely missing the point. The issue isn't Tik Tok's videos or algorithms and whatnot. It's all the data the app is collecting on the phones - much more than most users realize - and sending back to China. Early investigations revealed serious privacy concerns bordering on spyware. I think this was mostly with Android phones, because Apple locks more of that stuff, but it can happen on both. Now, is this level of privacy invasion legal? Possibly not, but we don't have nearly as many protections as Europe does, for example.

Just think of how central phones are to modern life - especially to the youngs - and to how much data they have access to. They can control the camera and microphone, read location data, read your texts, see what websites you visit, possibly even listen in on phone calls, read your phone screen (and see your bank info, for example), etc. Of course, that's not all legal, but the NSA has software that can do that more or less invisibly, so you better believe China can do it as well. Maybe they're not doing it all the time, but they have an app installed on hundreds of millions of US phones that could be updated at any time to do it.

Please I'm sure Apple and Google will protect us from that Shirley

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:50 amJust think of how central phones are to modern life - especially to the youngs - and to how much data they have access to. They can control the camera and microphone, read location data, read your texts, see what websites you visit, possibly even listen in on phone calls, read your phone screen (and see your bank info, for example), etc. Of course, that's not all legal, but the NSA has software that can do that more or less invisibly, so you better believe China can do it as well. Maybe they're not doing it all the time, but they have an app installed on hundreds of millions of US phones that could be updated at any time to do it.

I think this gets back to my original question ... does it just boil down to fear-mongering and "no fair, only we get to spy / data scrape our citizens" or is there another level of genuine concern?

All the spy shit plus being able to funnel specific content/propaganda to those 100 million. We like to keep those capabilities in house.

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:20 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:50 amJust think of how central phones are to modern life - especially to the youngs - and to how much data they have access to. They can control the camera and microphone, read location data, read your texts, see what websites you visit, possibly even listen in on phone calls, read your phone screen (and see your bank info, for example), etc. Of course, that's not all legal, but the NSA has software that can do that more or less invisibly, so you better believe China can do it as well. Maybe they're not doing it all the time, but they have an app installed on hundreds of millions of US phones that could be updated at any time to do it.

I think this gets back to my original question ... does it just boil down to fear-mongering and "no fair, only we get to spy / data scrape our citizens" or is there another level of genuine concern?

I don't really understand your question. What about that is just fear mongering? Give me an example of the level of concern you're asking about.

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:20 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:50 amJust think of how central phones are to modern life - especially to the youngs - and to how much data they have access to. They can control the camera and microphone, read location data, read your texts, see what websites you visit, possibly even listen in on phone calls, read your phone screen (and see your bank info, for example), etc. Of course, that's not all legal, but the NSA has software that can do that more or less invisibly, so you better believe China can do it as well. Maybe they're not doing it all the time, but they have an app installed on hundreds of millions of US phones that could be updated at any time to do it.

I think this gets back to my original question ... does it just boil down to fear-mongering and "no fair, only we get to spy / data scrape our citizens" or is there another level of genuine concern?

I don’t disagree with you that the US Government spying on its own citizens through their phones is a bad thing, but isn’t preventing more foreign actors, especially a rival, from the doing the same a net-positive?

When you take everything in context, the US Government going full bore into bipartisanship over this makes me do what every other person with a thinking brain does: "Oh, so we can pass legislation if we wanted to on things that could actually be good for people. Instead, we'll focus on an app that's been legal this long and now it's a matter of NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy."

Makes politics look even more like the theater it truly is and gives the impression to people that progress could literally happen overnight instead of it being the long, drawn out slog it always is. Gotta make sure the power players get their money and THEN the people can tangentially benefit.

So whatever. Ban it or don't. But people can read through the bullshit immediately.

yes true on the surface, but the problem/danger with framing it like this ignores the fact that the Republican party is solely and always the ones who prevent positive action and help to the citizens of this country. When we read stuff like "Congress doesn't do anything" it is inaccurate "both-sides"ism don't you think?

National media even the so-called heavyweights NYT/WaPo (as you all have repeatedly pointed out) fail consistently in this regard.

MaxWebster wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:26 am yes true on the surface, but the problem/danger with framing it like this ignores the fact that the Republican party is solely and always the ones who prevent positive action and help to the citizens of this country. When we read stuff like "Congress doesn't do anything" it is inaccurate "both-sides"ism don't you think?

National media even the so-called heavyweights NYT/WaPo (as you all have repeatedly pointed out) fail consistently in this regard.

Just for a clear example, it wasn't "Congress couldn't pass a vote to protect Black Americans' right of suffrage". It was "Republicans, fearing more Black Americans' suffrage would hurt their chances to stay in power, threatened a filibuster on getting that vote to protect Black Americans' right to suffrage on the floor, and one Democrat refused to lift her stand to remove that filibuster barrier."

Why there aren't billboards hammering Republicans trying to keep Blacks from voting aren't in every Black neighborhood in America mystifies me.

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:01 amI don't really understand your question. What about that is just fear mongering? Give me an example of the level of concern you're asking about.

If there was no lobbying or profit motive or xenophobia, only honest concerns, is this something the gov't would actively be working on? Like what do they believe the next step is if Tik Tok isn't stopped?

this.
fking this all day every day.
it's literal misinformation otherwise.

...

although that's really not a catchy slogan L-Jam. too long. ;P

L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:14 pm

MaxWebster wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:26 am yes true on the surface, but the problem/danger with framing it like this ignores the fact that the Republican party is solely and always the ones who prevent positive action and help to the citizens of this country. When we read stuff like "Congress doesn't do anything" it is inaccurate "both-sides"ism don't you think?

National media even the so-called heavyweights NYT/WaPo (as you all have repeatedly pointed out) fail consistently in this regard.

Just for a clear example, it wasn't "Congress couldn't pass a vote to protect Black Americans' right of suffrage". It was "Republicans, fearing more Black Americans' suffrage would hurt their chances to stay in power, threatened a filibuster on getting that vote to protect Black Americans' right to suffrage on the floor, and one Democrat refused to lift her stand to remove that filibuster barrier."

Why there aren't billboards hammering Republicans trying to keep Blacks from voting aren't in every Black neighborhood in America mystifies me.

“Republicans Don’t Want Blacks to Vote”

That’s short and sweet. Even emojis work:

Johnnie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:22 am When you take everything in context, the US Government going full bore into bipartisanship over this makes me do what every other person with a thinking brain does: "Oh, so we can pass legislation if we wanted to on things that could actually be good for people. Instead, we'll focus on an app that's been legal this long and now it's a matter of NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy."

Makes politics look even more like the theater it truly is and gives the impression to people that progress could literally happen overnight instead of it being the long, drawn out slog it always is. Gotta make sure the power players get their money and THEN the people can tangentially benefit.

So whatever. Ban it or don't. But people can read through the bullshit immediately.

Hm. Is it really surprising it's a lot easier to get something through Congress if a large majority of elected representatives agree on it?

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:50 pm

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:01 amI don't really understand your question. What about that is just fear mongering? Give me an example of the level of concern you're asking about.

If there was no lobbying or profit motive or xenophobia, only honest concerns, is this something the gov't would actively be working on? Like what do they believe the next step is if Tik Tok isn't stopped?

Impossible to say, because pretty much everything involves money. However, I'd like to think that this sort of thing is something Congress should be paying attention to. A foreign entity - and a partly hostile one at that - with the access and ability to violate the privacy of a large percentage of the country is the kind of thing you want government for. Many things might be better left to private enterprise and the free market, but this probably isn't one of them.

To that point, I'd probably take the concerns a lot more seriously if the same scrutiny and restrictions were universally applied.

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:22 pm To that point, I'd probably take the concerns a lot more seriously if the same scrutiny and restrictions were universally applied.

What are some examples?

The government has taken similar steps with Chinese technology in the recent past. https://onekey.com/blog/threat-national ... five-oems/

The Chinese government has an active hacking program and is constantly hacking or attempting to hack both private companies and government agencies. Of course, China isn't the only country; Russia and North Korea are regularly doing it as well. The difference is that China is deeply integrated into manufacturing and supply chains. This Tik Tok app is a similar threat, just packaged differently.

mister d wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:22 pm To that point, I'd probably take the concerns a lot more seriously if the same scrutiny and restrictions were universally applied.

There isn't universality because laws and regulations can* be made for domestic companies when they prove to be bad actors.

I meant more along the lines of whatever data their worried Tik Tok could scrape, those regulations should be applied so Instragram isn't able to either. And maybe they are and I'm just unaware, but I assume the entire value in those companies is in what they can draw out.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:20 pmHm. Is it really surprising it's a lot easier to get something through Congress if a large majority of elected representatives agree on it?

You're missing my point. If NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy is what this is all about Donald Fucking Tr*mp wouldn't be candidate for president.

There it is:

Former Treasury Secretary Mnuchin is putting together an investor group to buy TikTok

China can't own it, but right wing propaganda channels can.

Edit:

Pretty informative article. Reeks of "Oh my God. Look what they did to the children!" nonsense from Congress. Good to see that even as an adult this shit never goes out of style.

How the House quietly revived the TikTok ban before most of us noticed

NBC hired Ronna Romney McDaniel. Chuck Todd had words.

And the fact that NBC hired that scumbag just reminds me yet again that corporations only care about $$$.

Yup. The lesson remains you can do and say any horrible thing you want, as long as you have name recognition there’s going to be a soft corporate landing waiting and not just on Fox News.

The fundamental problem is that for-profit corporations exist to make profits for their shareholders. Their managers have a fiduciary duty to do so.

Historically, hasn’t the (supposedly) ideologically neutral media been the exception rather than the rule?

Was the hiring of that scumbag a talking point in a meeting or in the board room because NBC had shareholders in mind?

Or was it more likely that they just don't give a fuck and everything is fucked up and bullshit?