Most Underrated MLB player of All-Timez

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:31 pm

Having this discussion on FB after a long Jeter-as-most-overrated thread in my sports group.

Rule:

1) Can't be in the Hall of Fame.

That's it. People have cited the standard Dale Murphys and Tim Raineses of the world (I brought up Lefty Grove in response to what I believe was an awful suggestion of Stan Musial, who is quite well rated, and that begat rule #1).

I had a thought that, perhaps, BRIAN GILES is the most underrated player at least of the post-2000 era.

What say yinz?

boxcar · Post by **boxcar** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:33 pm

Barry Bonds!

Post by **Sabo** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:34 pm

Dave Concepcion in my utterly biased opinion.

L-Jam3 · Post by **L-Jam3** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:41 pm

If Mickey Tettleton was born 15 years later, he'd be in the MVP race every year. And have a lifetime endorsement deal for Froot Loops.

Post by **brian** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:42 pm

Sabo wrote:Dave Concepcion in my utterly biased opinion.

I'll say Lou Whitaker.

Roberto Alomar: 2320 games at 2B, 116 OPS+, 63.5 WAR, 7 teams.
2nd-ballot Hall of Famer.

Whitaker: 2308 games at 2B, 116 OPS+, 69.7 WAR, 1 team.
2.9% of HOF vote and done after 1st ballot.

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:42 pm

Bobby Grich. Career WAR of 70.9, higher than many HOFers including Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar, and a shitload of guys at less-demanding defensive positions. Got 2.6% of the Hall vote his first year of eligibility and dropped off the ballot. Career OBP more that 100 points higher than his batting average. Sabermetrics guys would gush over him today.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:43 pm

Rey Ordonez. He came up with the Mets at the same time Jeter came up with the Yankees. They were both young stars with a lot of talent and potential playing SS in NYC at the same time. Their progress was always compared, and debates raged over who would be the better player. Jeter is constantly discussed this year, and I haven't heard Rey Ordonez mentioned once.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:44 pm

Tough question. Probably Jeter.

howard · Post by **howard** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:45 pm

Barry Zito. What do I win?

Not at the top of the list, but worthy of discussion and the first to pop into my head when this topic is raised, Bobby Bonds.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:46 pm

Lou Whitaker was my initial thought too.

Is Dave Parker considered under-rated for this question?

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:53 pm

Raines, Whitaker, Dwight Evans, Scott Rolen

Adrian Beltre could finish his career in the top 30 for WAR

Post by **brian** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:55 pm

Yeah, if Beltre doesn't make the Hall for some reason, he wins this discussion hands-down. But I think he'll get in eventually when he's done.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:58 pm

I was about to post Beltre, but you guys beat me to it. Nearly 400 career homeruns and a career OPS+ of 116 while playing great defense at 3B. The only reason he might not get in is if voters are suspicious of PED use. His monster 2004 season (in a contract year) might be held against him on that front. For all-time, Whitaker and Grich are both really good answers.

howard · Post by **howard** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:01 pm

If not for Red Sox fans constantly harping his name like a mantra, yeah Dewey Evans. I wonder if any Yankee or Saux is disqualified from this.

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:05 pm

Lou Whitaker is a good one. His career stats are remarkably similar to his teammate Alan Trammell (also underrated), but while Trammell gets mentioned as a borderline HOF candidate, Whitaker dropped off his first ballot. The difference may be in that Trammell alternated MVP-caliber seasons with ones where he was subpar or injured, while Whitaker was just consistently very good.

EdRomero · Post by **EdRomero** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:10 pm

howard wrote:If not for Red Sox fans constantly harping his name like a mantra, yeah Dewey Evans. I wonder if any Yankee or Saux is disqualified from this.

I feel that Evans was always overlooked in Boston, other than fans liking to chant his name.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:23 pm

Of course I'm doing real work when a topic like this comes up.

Not mentioned but deserving mention: Dick Allen, Albert Belle, Jim Edmonds, Robin Ventura and then a bunch of 60s-70s OFs like Jimmy Wynn (who I'm pretty sure would have been my favorite player if I were born 20 years earlier), Reggie Smith and Vada Pinson

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:26 pm

I'd have Giles underrated a tier below HoF with a couple of those 60s-70s guys in terms of being highly underrated OF because they weren't pure sluggers. Probably standing right a half step behind Bobby Abreu who is a half step behind Carlos Beltran who deserves consideration.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:27 pm

L-Jam3 wrote:If Mickey Tettleton was born 15 years later, he'd be in the MVP race every year. And have a lifetime endorsement deal for Froot Loops.

He would have been a sabermetric darling but his career was really short.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:29 pm

3 straight posts and still no Kevin Brown. What the hell?

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:30 pm

Ooooh, guess mine, guess mine!!

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:34 pm

Others mentioned that should be in ...

Raines: Only reason he didn't walk in was Rickey Henderson

Evans: Better than Rice

Beltre: Should be a lock ... isn't he everything you hear about Brooks Robinson but with a better bat

Rolen: Why is there such an anti-3B bias?

Whitaker: Criminal

Grich: Same, except maybe more under-appreciated during his career so ignoring him makes a little more sense?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:36 pm

Ryan wrote:3 straight posts and still no Kevin Brown. What the hell?

I didn't even get to pitchers yet. He's there, Mussina will be, Saberhagen is despite all the injuries, David Wells was a really, really good pitcher for a cartoon. And there's no reason, all things considered, there should even be a debate around Tommy John.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:39 pm

What about Pettitte? Will he get into the Hall of Fame?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:42 pm

Ehhh ... he's one of those guys where he's better than some SPs already in but worse than contemporaries who won't make it so any Mr. Game Two lobbying will be easy to shout down. If you look at his numbers, he's a really good Koosman comp and Koosman isn't in.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:51 pm

My theory on 3B is that Schmidt (and to a lesser extent Brett) were so much larger than life that they ruined the perceptions of everyone in the 40-60 year old range as to what is expected from the position.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:59 pm

Its historical too; 3B has the lowest count among all positions. Its almost like the offensive bar is 1B production despite its place on the spectrum.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:02 pm

Speaking of 3B, David Wright should get a career restart with better health and a non-stupid home park.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:24 pm

Giff wrote:Ooooh, guess mine, guess mine!!

Dickie Thon!

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:26 pm

Giff wrote:Ooooh, guess mine, guess mine!!

He shouldn't count because he's being skipped for non-merit reasons.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:34 pm

Beltre is a great one. Dude is still awesome as hell. If he wouldn't have mailed in a few seasons in Seattle (or maybe it was Safeco), who knows.

If three years were the required range of underrated greatness Travis Hafner might honestly be in the all-time top few. People barely even know who he is.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:52 pm

Former Yankee Travis Hafner.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:59 pm

mister d wrote:Former Yankee Travis Hafner.

The best-known portion of his career is probably the hot 2 weeks he had in April of that season.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:10 pm

Grich, Whitaker, Trammell, Dwight Evans, Scott Rolen, Dick Allen, Raines, Giles, Beltre -- all excellent under-rated candidates. All but perhaps Giles are better than several players at their position who are in the HOF.

Darrell Evans deserves a long look. He would have been seen as a much better player in an era that properly valued OBP (.361 over a long career) and defense (a good defensive third-basemen in an era of great ones), as well as power (>400 HR). He's so under-rated he's not even considered under-rated.

Thinking of third-basemen, Ken Boyer and Graig Nettles should be on the list. Good hitters, outstanding defenders.

And of course, one of my favorite players of all-time -- Minnie Minoso. I'd put him above all those mentioned above as worthy of the HOF.

And perhaps a special case -- Shoeless Joe Jackson. We'll never know how good he would have been over a full career. But what he did before his dubious suspension suggests he would have been one of the best ever. For a comp in the modern era, my guess is something along the lines of Roberto Clemente with an even higher batting average (Jackson hit .382 in his final year at age 32).

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:20 pm

I re-submit Dave Parker for your under-rated and not in lists. 2712 career hits - one MVP - OPS+ 121 . He was terrifying for the Pirates in the late 70s and sustained a very good career beyond the cocaine days. He was really good for the Reds in helping them revive after the 1982-84 malaise.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:25 pm

tennbengal wrote:Lou Whitaker was my initial thought too.

Is Dave Parker considered under-rated for this question?

I think Parker is pretty properly rated, and that's coming from a guy who tried to wear 39 in little league.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:37 pm

Oh shit, John Olerud

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:26 pm

Olerud was either in the wrong era to get his due as amazing or the right era to survive as a 1B. I have zero idea on him.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:04 pm

tennbengal wrote:I re-submit Dave Parker for your under-rated and not in lists. 2712 career hits - one MVP - OPS+ 121 . He was terrifying for the Pirates in the late 70s and sustained a very good career beyond the cocaine days. He was really good for the Reds in helping them revive after the 1982-84 malaise.

Greg Luzinski had an ops+ of 130

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:05 pm

Less hits!