Fathers of Daughters

[Brainbo]

I don't envy you. I have no idea how you raise confident young women in today's society. We had an interesting discussion here about a group of local young women -- 14ish -- who took on Abercrombie & Fitch's t-shirts with messages that played into stereotypes about women ("You don't need brains when you have these" type shirts). If you go to the Post-Gazette's website (www.post-gazette.com), there is front-page coverage, which links to a really refreshing story about the girls. Their attitude was particularly refreshing, not allowing themslves to be patronized and remaining realistic and committed to their cause regardless of A&F's intentions. The first comment I heard from many men in my office (and a few women) -- of course they're complaining, look at them. Now, I will not evaluate the beauty of a 14-year-old girl, but I think most would accept that they probably don't satisfy the standard of what is "hot" for teen (and yes, I sort of cringed even writing that). So what do you tell your daughters -- you can be idealistic, but if you're not attractive your message is going to get lost? If you're too attractive no one will take you seriously? To be taken seriously you need to at least buy into the attractiveness debate?

I don't know. I just was really taken by the story and the reaction to it, and I thought of all of the guys here who speak so fondly of their daughters. Yes, they have female influences in their lives, but just know that hearing that you matter and are loved and, frankly, that you're beautiful, from your dad means perhaps a hell of a lot more than maybe some of you know. It may not matter now, but it might make a hell of a difference down the road, who knows.

I realize this was quite disjointed and not particularly well-written, but I appreciate the forum. Now go call your daughters.

[Coz]

Interesting article, Brainbo, because it raises more questions than it answers. To wit:

- What do these girls have in mind for their t-shirts' messages? Do they have a solution to their issue, or just a complaint?
- I thought that we were in the post-feminist Naomi Wolf inspired age where women flouting their sexuality (perhaps with a crass statement scrawled across their decoultage) was empowering. Now, all of the sudden, that is damaging to little girls? Who'd have thunk it?
- Are the problems with the shirts just the messages, or the cut and style of the tiny girl shirts popular today (not that I'm complaining but...) - i.e. wearing a shirt that is clearly too small which creates the psychological allusion to an ingenue - the innocent girl who has become a woman before your very eyes?
- How does a parent influence their daughter's decision to wear clothing without sounding/becoming draconian - which could lead to an alienation away from the daughter following a parent's advice about more important things (e.g. sexual relations, moral character in her relationships with friends, etc.)

[sancarloskid]

Good points, brainbo. I am the father of a 5 year-old girl. Happy, smart and pretty. But, I'm scared to death about how to instill the right values and thought processes, so she'll be a confident, centered, rational girl.

I grew up without sisters in a male/sports/testosterone-oriented household. This shit is all new to me. I was always aware of the need for Title IX opportunities, and non-judgmental societal views of women, etc. in an academic sort of way, but now I see it from the perspective of self-interest, in terms of my daughter. But, at heart, I am still the kind of guy who enjoys the benefits the world offers me for being a man, too.

So, where to go with all this? How to instill the right values in my daughter so she'll have a positive unshakeable self-image, without lying about my own enjoyment of sexist humor, pics of naked girls, yadda yadda yadda?

I'm leaning toward packing her away into a convent when she hits puberty.

[Brainbo]

Interesting article, Brainbo, because it raises more questions than it answers. To wit:

- What do these girls have in mind for their t-shirts' messages? Do they have a solution to their issue, or just a complaint?

No, they have a plan for t-shirts with more positive messages. They said they essentially pitched them to A&F but don't expect them to take them, in which case they're prepared to go elsewhere. (American Eagle Outfitters, a competitor, is based her in Pittsburgh, so I don't know if that's what they're thinking).

I thought that we were in the post-feminist Naomi Wolf inspired age where women flouting their sexuality (perhaps with a crass statement scrawled across their decoultage) was empowering. Now, all of the sudden, that is damaging to little girls? Who'd have thunk it?

See, that's what made me think. I normally would be the first to say yes. But when the guys in my office made their FIRST comment about this otherwise refreshing article about the lack of attractiveness in the accompanying pictures, it made me think that there's nothing empowering about it.

Are the problems with the shirts just the messages, or the cut and style of the tiny girl shirts popular today (not that I'm complaining but...) - i.e. wearing a shirt that is clearly too small which creates the psychological allusion to an ingenue - the innocent girl who has become a woman before your very eyes?

The messages. You guys often forget that our girls are our girls. How they appear under our shirts or are suits more often than not is a function of, well, just being the girls.

How does a parent influence their daughter's decision to wear clothing without sounding/becoming draconian - which could lead to an alienation away from the daughter following a parent's advice about more important things (e.g. sexual relations, moral character in her relationships with friends, etc.)

Exactly. I don't envy parents.

[hdo45331]

Good points, brainbo. I am the father of a 5 year-old girl. Happy, smart and pretty. But, I'm scared to death about how to instill the right values and thought processes, so she'll be a confident, centered, rational girl.

I grew up without sisters in a male/sports/testosterone-oriented household. This shit is all new to me. I was always aware of the need for Title IX opportunities, and non-judgmental societal views of women, etc. in an academic sort of way, but now I see it from the perspective of self-interest, in terms of my daughter. But, at heart, I am still the kind of guy who enjoys the benefits the world offers me for being a man, too.

So, where to go with all this? How to instill the right values in my daughter so she'll have a positive unshakeable self-image, without lying about my own enjoyment of sexist humor, pics of naked girls, yadda yadda yadda?

I'm leaning toward packing her away into a convent when she hits puberty.

Be consistant, and try to take time to answer any questions she has. Be supportive of whatever she wants in life, for it is hers. If you try to influence her (or any youth) in "your" direction of life, they will generally go the opposite way; now if they think they had the idea......

Puberty? Wait for the mood swings, coupled with the fragile ego of the young person. I'm glad I am past that time.

[ojo]

i saw this on the news last night. good for them.

that said, if i were raising children right now i'd be more afraid for my boys than my girls.

[coledog]

Why more afraid for boys than girls? I have two boys, and I'm interested here.

I'm very excited my kids are growing up in a time when girls are encouraged to show leadership and conviction, to have opinions and to be in control of their decisions, personality and their sexuality. I also have no idea how I'd raise a daughter, but I intend to raise my boys to give and value respect.

[Brainbo]

Be consistant, and try to take time to answer any questions she has.

What if the question is: Daddy, does it matter if people think I'm pretty? How, in good conscience, can you say that how she looks (or how she is measured against society's standards at the time) doesn't matter? I get that it doesn't matter to you, or to her intellectual abilities, to her friends, or maybe even to her. But, ultimately, it does affect how people hear her, receive her, and treat her.

[Coz]

Interesting article, Brainbo, because it raises more questions than it answers. To wit:

- What do these girls have in mind for their t-shirts' messages? Do they have a solution to their issue, or just a complaint?

No, they have a plan for t-shirts with more positive messages. They said they essentially pitched them to A&F but don't expect them to take them, in which case they're prepared to go elsewhere. (American Eagle Outfitters, a competitor, is based her in Pittsburgh, so I don't know if that's what they're thinking).

I guess that is kind of my point. Exactly how will they get at their message and be popular. Look, say what you will about A&F or whatever, but they are responding to the market, not making it. I wish these girls luck, but they are fighting a pretty big uphill battle.

I thought that we were in the post-feminist Naomi Wolf inspired age where women flouting their sexuality (perhaps with a crass statement scrawled across their decoultage) was empowering. Now, all of the sudden, that is damaging to little girls? Who'd have thunk it?

See, that's what made me think. I normally would be the first to say yes. But when the guys in my office made their FIRST comment about this otherwise refreshing article about the lack of attractiveness in the accompanying pictures, it made me think that there's nothing empowering about it.

Unfortunately, no t-shirt is going to change the way men and women interact. The sad fact of the matter is, though, that those girls have less to worry about from boys/men commenting on their appearance than they do of the other girls/women they know.

Are the problems with the shirts just the messages, or the cut and style of the tiny girl shirts popular today (not that I'm complaining but...) - i.e. wearing a shirt that is clearly too small which creates the psychological allusion to an ingenue - the innocent girl who has become a woman before your very eyes?

The messages. You guys often forget that our girls are our girls. How they appear under our shirts or are suits more often than not is a function of, well, just being the girls.

I'm not talking about "the girls" per se, but the willingness to flaunt them in that way. For example - "the girls" were prominently displayed in 18th century fashion, but that was about an ideal of womanhood which focussed on the bust. So, is a tight tiny t-shirt that says "I am woman hear me roar" that much different than one that says "My Humps"? I guess I'm just saying that focussing on just the messages on the front of the shirts is missing a big part of the equation.

[ojo]

Why more afraid for boys than girls? I have two boys, and I'm interested here.

I'm very excited my kids are growing up in a time when girls are encouraged to show leadership and conviction, to have opinions and to be in control of their decisions, personality and their sexuality. I also have no idea how I'd raise a daughter, but I intend to raise my boys to give and value respect.

'cuz boys have been clobbered silly in our public education system since 1970.

years ago they realized girls were falling well short of boys in science and math, and that boys were falling short of girls in reading and humanities.

they set out and successfully eliminated the gap in math/science, to the extent that girls now surpass boys in those aptitudes, but the gap still remains (actually widened from what i've read) in regards to reading skills.

i'm not saying at all that you shouldn't fear for your child's well-being and over all future. but to assume a girls' future contains potentially more peril than a boys just cuz she's well, a girl, well.....our public education system identified some of these things a long time ago and fought the good fight for our little girls. not so sure they're gonna do the same for the boys.

[bobpentfs11]

Brainbo, isn't that one of the general failings of our race though? That regardless of how powerful or insightful a message, it never reaches those that truly need it, or if it does, its has since been twisted by others until the original message has been twisted away from its initial meaning.

[Brainbo]

Unfortunately, no t-shirt is going to change the way men and women interact. The sad fact of the matter is, though, that those girls have less to worry about from boys/men commenting on their appearance than they do of the other girls/women they know.

I don't know about that. I'd say it's equal.

I'm not talking about "the girls" per se, but the willingness to flaunt them in that way. For example - "the girls" were prominently displayed in 18th century fashion, but that was about an ideal of womanhood which focussed on the bust. So, is a tight tiny t-shirt that says "I am woman hear me roar" that much different than one that says "My Humps"? I guess I'm just saying that focussing on just the messages on the front of the shirts is missing a big part of the equation.

You know, it's a fine line between wanting to wear a tight t-shirt because it makes you feel womanly (I mean, you spend years in puberty wanting the girls and when you finally have them, you like to know you have them), and because you want to attract guys or attention to the girls as the girls. To say they should focus on tight t-shirts suggests that the problem is inherent in women, that to be taken seriously you can't acknowledge you have a great body. It's tough to pull off, I acknowledge, even tougher when you're trying to do it at 16, 17, and 18 years old.

[ojo]

Unfortunately, no t-shirt is going to change the way men and women interact. The sad fact of the matter is, though, that those girls have less to worry about from boys/men commenting on their appearance than they do of the other girls/women they know.

I don't know about that. I'd say it's equal.

I'm not talking about "the girls" per se, but the willingness to flaunt them in that way. For example - "the girls" were prominently displayed in 18th century fashion, but that was about an ideal of womanhood which focussed on the bust. So, is a tight tiny t-shirt that says "I am woman hear me roar" that much different than one that says "My Humps"? I guess I'm just saying that focussing on just the messages on the front of the shirts is missing a big part of the equation.

You know, it's a fine line between wanting to wear a tight t-shirt because it makes you feel womanly (I mean, you spend years in puberty wanting the girls and when you finally have them, you like to know you have them), and because you want to attract guys or attention to the girls as the girls. To say they should focus on tight t-shirts suggests that the problem is inherent in women, that to be taken seriously you can't acknowledge you have a great body. It's tough to pull off, I acknowledge, even tougher when you're trying to do it at 16, 17, and 18 years old.

what it comes down to is over the line corporate exploitation of children.

i mean, if we push the envelope to see how dumb a teenager can actually be, or what he/she will actually 'do' to gain acceptance, well...sign me up for that dvd.

[howard in nyc]

the constant media messages seem to me the biggest negative factor in the psychological shaping of young people. and i do not mean the programming. the advertising. ubiquitous, targeted straight for their unconscious minds, extraordinarily powerful, and 99.9% of the time invisible.

i object to the effect advertising has on me. i shudder to think if i had kids of how the hell i would try to cope with it.

bill hicks was right. (no offense meant to those thus employed).

[briandtw]

bill hicks was right. (no offense meant to those thus employed).

SPOON-ER! *in best Superintendent Chalmers voice*