Nonlinear FC wrote:The Sybian wrote:brian wrote: Franken??? Not so sure. He was a comedian on a USO Tour in a war zone, and posed for a childish fratboy picture. Was it wrong? Absolutely, inexcusable. Does it warrant resigning from Congress? Look at the long list of crimes and moral shortcomings of GOP Congressmen who were never called on to step down. Franken's acts are so far below Moore and Trump's on the legal and moral wrongdoings scale. Do I want to see the Dems hold themselves to a higher standard? Yes, but at what cost?
Clinton was impeached for lying about getting a blow job from a consensual adult.
I respect you. I often agree with you. These two points speak to what brian was saying about a bunch of dudes trying to hash this out.
1) He's not resigning because of Leann Tweeden. If that's all that ever came out, the vast majority of Dems would not have been in favor of him stepping down. There have now been over half a dozen women to come forward and say that he did inappropriate things, some of them while he was in office. Between Enoch posting an article from Nov. 14 and this, I'm beginning to wonder if folks are selectively reading the news on Franken. It's not on par with allegations against Moore and Trump. It is definitely enough for him to need to go.
We can argue all day about the difference of opinion on protecting our own at pretty much all costs. But let's not try to diminish what Franken did to further the point. This isn't a "lynching" as I saw written earlier. There are multiple damning and credible accusations here. Not one sketchy one made by a RW radio host.
2) Hoo boy on the Clinton stuff. The power dynamics at play in that situation are horrendous. I totally get what you're saying in terms of the context. But a LOT of people, particularly women, are looking back at Clinton and feeling a lot of remorse for not saying how fucked up that situation was. Not about Hillary, but the fact that a person in that position thought it was OK to be fucking around with a young, gullible, intern. It was gross.
When you started with "I respect you," I was braced for a much bigger assault, and I don't disagree with anything you said here. I'm having a really difficult time cementing my opinions on this one, and I'm thinking out loud in my posts. I know I've been inconsistent. You are right, the Dems didn't pressure Franken to resign until after 6 more accusations came out, and Franken, to my knowledge has not denied any of the allegations. I referenced the point in time when only the Tweeden accusation was known referencing the attacks on Franken at that point. Again, I know my thoughts here have not been clearly thought out or written, and I keep having work interruptions. I've found myself persuaded by arguments on both sides in this thread. I want to agree with Brian and Mister D, but I feel like Luke, and want to give in to my anger. Dems playing by the rules and taking the high road is the only reason the GOP own all three branches, and an overwhelming majority of state governments.
1.) I don't think anyone is arguing that the allegations against Franken aren't true. Franken admitted it. I find it a bit odd that I haven't seen anyone point out that she is a Right Wing talk show host. I've heard some rumblings about Roger Stone pushing Tweeden to come forward, but I haven't looked into those rumors at all. I don't think that changes anything. My point in discussing the false accusation potential was in response to Brian saying there is no slippery slope. The Right has created an industry out of generating fake scandals against Dems, and Fox and the RW media are eager to push the fake scandals. The Left has shown a willingness, on the occasions I discussed, to jump the gun and fire people over what turns out to be false accusations. My worry was Franken's resignation encouraging a future fake accusations against another Dem Congressman. Even if Stone orchestrated the accusations against Franken, I have to assume they are true.
2.) I'm not defending the morality of Clinton's affair with Lewinsky, I 100% agree it was a power play, taking advantage of a very young intern. Just pointing out that the moral leaders decrying Clinton as unfit were raging hypocrites. Clinton was absolutely gross, but not illegal, while Vitter banging whores was illegal. [Not to mention all of the other women with allegations against Clinton, some of whom claimed non-consensual sexual conduct).
I hope you weren't accusing me of "mansplaining" or imposing myself into the #MeToo movement. I'm not at all saying we, as men, know better what is and is not offensive or harassing to women. I sure as hell don't condone any form of sexual harassment. I conduct workplace investigations on claims of sexual harassment and teach seminars on preventing sexual harassment and hostile work environment claims, mostly from the angle of making employees aware of their own behavior, how they impact others, and learning boundaries (this is shockingly absent in many people). These are open ended discussions, and I've heard hundreds of stories of harassment from women, and discussed people's perceptions of behaviors that border on harassment. As a point of comparison, the majority of investigations I conduct are discrimination and hostile work environment claims. The overwhelming majority of these claims, I've found the allegations unsubstantiated. With Sexual harassment claims, I've found it likely that the claims were true in every single claim. In my opinion, this is because women do not want to bring these claims forward for numerous reasons. I think for every claim brought forward, there are hundreds that are not brought forward out of fear, embarrassment, or other reasons.
I'm not upset about Franken being forced to resign, but I'm not sold that it is the best political move for Dems. I am extremely upset at Al for committing the acts that led to the accusations. He was my favorite Senator, and I think his questioning during hearings was more valuable than anyone. He was a great speaker, and unafraid to say things that needed to be said. I'm pissed that he was a pig to women, I'm pissed he is leaving, but my anger is at Al, not the Dems who pushed for his resignation.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt