2013 Fall Television Thread

[A_B]

With Hulu, I end up watching more television and reading more books than ever before. I watch shows at lunchtime 2-3 times a week, which frees up reading time in the evenings.

Anyhoo, since I don't have cable, I am locked in to over the air which means it's straight network, homies. So I watched two shows last night: Dads and Brooklyn 99.

Dads was a flaming pile of shit that filled me with vitriol over someone greenlighting this. Just awful, awful television. I am so used to shows without laugh tracks that I was distracted during the whole show. I give it four episodes before the cancellation.

Brooklyn 99, however, I liked a lot. I'm a Samberg fan, and the rest of the cast was excellent. Braugher is great and Terry Titties is funny playing against his type. Definitely getting into the rotation.

Have The New Girl and the Mindy Project queued up for lunchtime today.

Looking forward to The Michael J Fox show and will also probably give The Blacklist a couple of episodes.

[brian]

New Girl and Mindy Project are two of the funniest shows on TV at this point. Mindy Project took about a half-season last year to get it going (tried some different cast changes, etc.) but once it hit the ground it was really, really good.

Brooklyn Nine-Nine is produced by Michael Schur (late of Fire Joe Morgan), but more importantly formerly of The Office in its prime and still show-runner for Parks & Rec, which has a case for the current funniest show on TV. So you'd expect it to be good.

[A_B]

New Girl and Mindy Project are two of the funniest shows on TV at this point. Mindy Project took about a half-season last year to get it going (tried some different cast changes, etc.) but once it hit the ground it was really, really good.

Brooklyn Nine-Nine is produced by Michael Schur (late of Fire Joe Morgan), but more importantly formerly of The Office in its prime and still show-runner for Parks & Rec, which has a case for the current funniest show on TV. So you'd expect it to be good.

It's basically Parks & Rec in a police station without the asides where characters talk into the camera. Ensemble, with two clear leading parts (Samberg = Poehler, Braugher = Offerman) and then a host of others, including the hard case latina, bumbling idiot in love with the latina, crazy woman on the fringes, etc.

[Giff]

I LOL'd quite a bit at Brooklyn 99. Very promising for a pilot. I love how they didn't make Samberg into a bumbling detective instead making him someone who's actually good at his job.

[brian]

I LOL'd quite a bit at Brooklyn 99. Very promising for a pilot. I love how they didn't make Samberg into a bumbling detective instead making him someone who's actually good at his job.

Yeah, the more accurate template for the show according to Schur was Barney Miller. Though I kinda get what AB is saying. Schur said it was important to make sure that the main characters were actually good at their job as the lazy way to get laughs is to make fun of the characters instead of having them being real(-ish) people who could actually maybe be detectives in real life.

[A_B]

I was just commenting from an ensemble point. I liked it, and expect to continue to like it.

[howard]

Positive notices from the swamp--ok, I'll give B99 a go.

[A_B]

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[govmentchedda]

Watched the B99 pilot last night. It's definitely worth a look.

[howard]

Two thumbs up from this guy. They got my attention when the name of the murder victim was that of a famous US Treasury Secretary (Henry Morganthau Jr.)--lets me fantasize about killing some more recent ones. They sold me with the names of Terry's twin girls.

Manscaping.

Great potential for this show.

[Giff]

Mmmmaaaaaaaannnnnssssssscccaaaaaappppppiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnggggggg.

[brian]

Two thumbs up from this guy. They got my attention when the name of the murder victim was that of a famous US Treasury Secretary (Henry Morganthau Jr.)--lets me fantasize about killing some more recent ones. They sold me with the names of Terry's twin girls.

Manscaping.

Great potential for this show.

Yeah, Cagney and Lacey for his daughters' names is the genius of Mike Schur. Broad enough to get a laugh and inside enough to not be stupid about it.

[howard]

There are some challenges for this show to meet. I can't think of a successful cop comedy outside of Barney Miller (Car 54 was as sophisticated as Gilligan's Island on the comedy scale). And the actual cop action of Barney Miller was very limited, restricted to the squad room.

Making funny of cops shooting and arresting, (week after week as opposed to a 90 minute movie) might be tough. But the pilot episode did this very nicely. The material is there--every successful cop show has plenty of comedic content, the packaging it into a sitcom is the challenge that hasn't been met so far (unless there is some glaring example that my senile mind is skipping past).

The other is Andre Braugher. Great actor, afaik no comedic experience. Yeah, he is playing it straight--the toughest part of comedy, being the straight man. That ain't easy, nor is being Ron Swanson, especially when there already is a Ron Swanson on another channel. I love the guy, I am confident he will do well, but this is a huge, novel task ahead of him. I'll be watching his timing (a couple of little stumbles in the pilot). There was plenty of comedy and comedic timing in his work on Homicide: Life on the Streets that will translate, as well as skills from his deep body of work in TV and movies. Yeah, this is also on the writer/director/editor/other cast members, but it will land on him. I hope he, and the rest of 'em, are funny.

I read Terry Crews' imdb bio, Sgt. Terry from the show--former MAC all-conference DE at Western Michigan, seven years bouncing around the NFL. And, of course, President Camacho from Idiocracy. Interesting guy, jock/actor/film guy. One of those classic character/comedic faces. He might blow up if this show works.

[The Sybian]

There are some challenges for this show to meet. I can't think of a successful cop comedy outside of Barney Miller (Car 54 was as sophisticated as Gilligan's Island on the comedy scale). And the actual cop action of Barney Miller was very limited, restricted to the squad room.

Making funny of cops shooting and arresting, (week after week as opposed to a 90 minute movie) might be tough. But the pilot episode did this very nicely. The material is there--every successful cop show has plenty of comedic content, the packaging it into a sitcom is the challenge that hasn't been met so far (unless there is some glaring example that my senile mind is skipping past).

Then again, did you think a show centered around a small town's Park and Rec office would have legs? Or a show that takes place almost exclusive in a paper sales office? I don't know how much police work they can fit in, but they seem to have good characters and good acting, so maybe it can last. That was one of the best pilots I can recall. Comedy pilots, as a rule, suck, but that was enjoyable and had several laugh out loud funny lines. And Samberg's rival is incredibly cute.

[Scottie]

There are some challenges for this show to meet. I can't think of a successful cop comedy outside of Barney Miller

Police Squad.

[A_B]

You must have missed Braugher's turn in the laughable Last Resort.

[brian]

The concept behind Last Resort was interesting and the pilot one of the best I've ever seen. That was going to be a balancing act to try and keep it interesting every week and Shawn Ryan fell pretty quickly though.

[howard]

(unless there is some glaring example that my senile mind is skipping past).

See?

Police Squad.

Fuck.

If I was blindly defending myself for that gaffe, I'd claim six episodes isn't a success. But I got nothin.

Syb, I was skeptical about Parks and Rec, mainly because I spent lots of my youth working in a small-town parks and rec department, and didn't see the comedy potential. But as a general rule, sitcoms have little to do with the sit. (There are plenty of exceptions; I submit this as a generality). And Barney Miller largely restricted the situation to characters in a room.

I guess I'm saying the Cop situation is different; that the reason so many attempts at cop sitcoms have failed is the particular situation. I could be wrong--most sitcoms fail, regardless of the setting, and your point about the these unlikely situations you've cited succeeding is well taken. I could be wrong for another reason--just because I have been conditioned (along with the rest of TV viewing society) to link 'cop show' with 'one-hour drama', I view this show as unnatural or weird.

There was no successful hospital sitcom, despite many failed attempts, for decades of television history (I don't count M*A*S*H). Until there was one, Scrubs.

Just thinkin. I'm already a fan, and I am not at all predicting failure. I am anticipating success, based on the talent and the past success of Shur, based on the dramatic talent of Brauger, and based of the excellent pilot. I'm hoping for success. And in advance I am trumpeting the achievement as that much more notable should they succeed, because of the extra obstacles I listed.

I'm not trying to set up an 'I told you so' (as I am wont to do). If this show doesn't make it, I am likely to instead, react with a 'shit, I liked that show, I'm disappointed it didn't work'.

Fucking Police Squad; how could I forget that one?

[Pruitt]

Watched the premiere of Hostages last night and it is bad.

Opening scene, the hotshot FBI guy shoots a hostage taker who was standing in front of the hostage.

Angry cop: What if you missed?

FBI Guy: I didn't.

Dialogue stayed at that level, and the revelations that the perfect family that is taken hostage is full of dark secrets (debts to drug dealers, teen pregnancy, father having an affair) were banal and entirely predictable.

An unsustainable premise handled in a leaden and obvious way with unappealing characters. I give it three weeks.

[A_B]

I watched The Blacklist. It has some promise, but damned if there were some ridiculous plot holes.

For example, the FBI can pick up their Rookie super fast using a helicopter, but can't mobilize to stop a river escape?

And the rookie sets up an unmissable adoption appointment on her first day of work?

Odd, but Spader is odd enough to make his character work. I'll give it a few episodes.

[A_B]

So the Brooklyn 99/Parks and rec thing got deeper because there is an older detective who is apparetnly bad at his job and everyone tells him all the time. Hello, Dertective Jerry!

And Terry Titties just sat around at his desk a la Donna.

[The Sybian]

So the Brooklyn 99/Parks and rec thing got deeper because there is an older detective who is apparetnly bad at his job and everyone tells him all the time. Hello, Dertective Jerry!

And Terry Titties just sat around at his desk a la Donna.

The only difference is that the Aubrey Plaza character in B99 is completely unfunny and annoying.

[Scottie]

Watched the premiere of Hostages last night and it is bad.

Opening scene, the hotshot FBI guy shoots a hostage taker who was standing in front of the hostage.

Angry cop: What if you missed?

FBI Guy: I didn't.

Dialogue stayed at that level, and the revelations that the perfect family that is taken hostage is full of dark secrets (debts to drug dealers, teen pregnancy, father having an affair) were banal and entirely predictable.

An unsustainable premise handled in a leaden and obvious way with unappealing characters. I give it three weeks.

Just checked out some of this show. And I say "some" because I quit after about 20 minutes. Possibly the worst so-called drama I've ever seen. Unwatchable. Cliché after cliché after cliché after cliché; often several per minute. Completely predictable. In many ways it is like a comedic parody of itself save for the fact that it isn't even awful-funny.

Even worse is that the chick that plays the lead role, of a doctor, acts every scene exactly like she's Shelley Duvall's character in The Shining during the scenes when Nicholson is chasing her with an axe; same frantic bug-eyed toothy terrorized expression, except it rings completely false in this mutt of a show, much like hearing someone sing drastically off-key.

As Pruitt said, the dialogue is painfully bad. Consider this exchange:

"Mommie . . . why didn't you just go ahead and kill the president?"
"Oh, sweetheart . . . because if I had killed the president you would never have forgiven me!"

Then I barfed.

[degenerasian]

Everyone is raving about The Blacklist but I also found it cliche'd and forced.

is the no room for character development anymore on US tv dramas. Is there so much pressure on pilots that it has to be a bang for your buck in the first 10 minutes?

here's how I would have written it.

First episode is a character setup episode. What happened to Reddington 4 years ago, how did "Lizzie" become a profiler (flashback to her mom dying). Maybe even hint that somehow they know each other without spoiling it. Show Reddington helping the guy get into the country. The Episode ENDS (not begins) with Reddington turning himself in and saying "I will only talk to Elizabeth Keendun dun dun there's your cliffhanger. 

[Scottie]

Which is a damn shame because what sustains the audience is not kaboom! kaboom! but rather gradual revelation. Excellent drama requires time to set up big moments. You lay the foundations, set up the audience to speculate X is going to happen when, as a writer, you know all along it's really all about Y. And gradual revelation for characters and plots, a hint here, a misdirect there, the very build up itself, is what makes the big moments so great.

The dreck on TV these days? Boom! right from the start; the premature ejaculation of writing. You know that old show biz axiom that "you never open with a show stopper"? There's a reason for that. Because after that y'got nothing.

[Pruitt]

Which is a damn shame because what sustains the audience is not kaboom! kaboom! but rather gradual revelation. Excellent drama requires time to set up big moments. You lay the foundations, set up the audience to speculate X is going to happen when, as a writer, you know all along it's really all about Y. And gradual revelation for characters and plots, a hint here, a misdirect there, the very build up itself, is what makes the big moments so great.

The dreck on TV these days? Boom! right from the start; the premature ejaculation of writing. You know that old show biz axiom that "you never open with a show stopper"? There's a reason for that. Because after that y'got nothing.

You would think the major networks would learn from the far superior dramas being produced at HBO, AMC etc.

But there is no attempt at subltle shadings, at character growth. Not to harp on and on about Breaking Bad, but the characters in that show changed during the course of the series run. Same thing with other highly praised cable dramas. Network dramas tend to throw the locked in characters at the audience in episode one. All that changes will be their circumstances. And the belief is still that the protagonist MUST be a good person.

So a show like Hostages while trying to carve out a niche as a tense thriller with layer upon layer of intrigue must still establish that the kidnapper is - at heart - a decent fellow.

So we see him in his day job as a hotshot FBI man. Reckless? Maybe, but by God he got the job done and saved the innocent people.

Later, we see the kidnapped family's dog being shot in order to keep it quiet. But ten minutes later, one of the kidnappers shows the teenaged son that the dog is okay... just tranquilized. Later, the lead kidnapper (the FBI guy) helps the teenaged daughter hide her just taken pregnancy test from her parents. And even though (and this line killed me) he said a moment later - "this is not my concern," he "did the right thing" by protecting the girl's secret.

So a 15 episode drama has already defused the central tension of the series - that the kidnapers may do something violent and terrible to the kidnapped family. After all, we've seen the FBI guys with his own kid, and with his sick wife. And we know that for all their yelling and threats, these bad guys love dogs and will help confused teenagers.

Now imagine this show as it would appear on HBO.

[degenerasian]

This morning on the train I tried to give The Blacklist another chance.

Just fucking awful.

Second episode was worse then the pilot. The special effects were brutal. The helicopter flying into Washington and train crash in particular.

James Spader's French was also cringe worthy. This show is terribly put together.

[Rush2112]

I don't understand why they don't give a bit of time for a return on their investment. They've already sunk money into development, casting, and filming a number of episodes...something isn't view by a trillion viewers the first couple of weeks they cancel it.

P&R is a prime example of a show that they waited on and while it's not a huge hit it gets a good rating, critically acclaimed, and there is a cultish following.

is the no room for character development anymore on US tv dramas. Is there so much pressure on pilots that it has to be a bang for your buck in the first 10 minutes?
 

[A_B]

I too don't like the rushing of character development. The blacklist ahs some promise, but it needs to be less about the woman and her husband and more about spader and his criminal network.

[brian]

While totally not disagreeing with you guys, the networks have issues that the cable networks don't have. While obviously advertising is an issue on the cable networks as well, the sheer amount of difference in the amount of advertising for the "Big Four" broadcast networks means it's difficult for them to produce anything especially edgy or potentially controversial. Also, most shows are slated for between 22 and 24 episodes as opposed to 13 for the cable networks which leads to a lot of unnecessary "bloat".

That said, the line between the two is getting blurrier everyday.

[A_B]

One thing that I saw about Breaking Bad was that it never fell into the trap of having to develop a "B" story arc. It was always abtou Walter and the meth and everything else fed off of that. No side stories for the secondary characters outside of developing the cracaters as they fit into the main story.

The Keene/Husband dynamic is clearly a season-long storyline that is secondary to the main week-to-week action. I'll kepp watching it because it's a show that my wife and daughter are all watching and it's an opportunity to share some time, even if it is watching the television. but at 10 on a monday, that's OK with me.

[degenerasian]

While totally not disagreeing with you guys, the networks have issues that the cable networks don't have. While obviously advertising is an issue on the cable networks as well, the sheer amount of difference in the amount of advertising for the "Big Four" broadcast networks means it's difficult for them to produce anything especially edgy or potentially controversial. Also, most shows are slated for between 22 and 24 episodes as opposed to 13 for the cable networks which leads to a lot of unnecessary "bloat".

That said, the line between the two is getting blurrier everyday.

I think the problem is that the uncessary bloat will be somewhere in the middle and will drag the show for a month. Whereas if that bloat was necessary character development in the first 2 or 3 episodes then the 'big reveal' or 'diversion' will be better in episodes 4-10 (or whenever). These shows are under too much pressure to produce something spectacular right away or else there won't be episodes 4-10.

[brian]

While totally not disagreeing with you guys, the networks have issues that the cable networks don't have. While obviously advertising is an issue on the cable networks as well, the sheer amount of difference in the amount of advertising for the "Big Four" broadcast networks means it's difficult for them to produce anything especially edgy or potentially controversial. Also, most shows are slated for between 22 and 24 episodes as opposed to 13 for the cable networks which leads to a lot of unnecessary "bloat".

That said, the line between the two is getting blurrier everyday.

I think the problem is that the uncessary bloat will be somewhere in the middle and will drag the show for a month. Whereas if that bloat was necessary character development in the first 2 or 3 episodes then the 'big reveal' or 'diversion' will be better in episodes 4-10 (or whenever). These shows are under too much pressure to produce something spectacular right away or else there won't be episodes 4-10.

That's fair, but that also goes back to my point about advertising (and something I also didn't mention was the difference in production costs). Breaking Bad had OK, but hardly stellar ratings when it debuted, but AMC was willing to let it grow an audience because it knew the show was good (and also because they didn't have a whole lot of options to replace it with frankly).

The networks don't seem to have the balls to stand behind a great show and let it grow an audience (also quite possibly because there simply aren't that many great shows they can do that with).

[degenerasian]

too bad the networks don't have the balls to stay with quality since as Rush said, they invest so heavily in the production and for something like The Blacklist, they have the prime Monday 10pm timeslot.

Maybe America needs this guy :)

[Scottie]

While totally not disagreeing with you guys, the networks have issues that the cable networks don't have. While obviously advertising is an issue on the cable networks as well, the sheer amount of difference in the amount of advertising for the "Big Four" broadcast networks means it's difficult for them to produce anything especially edgy or potentially controversial. Also, most shows are slated for between 22 and 24 episodes as opposed to 13 for the cable networks which leads to a lot of unnecessary "bloat".

That said, the line between the two is getting blurrier everyday.

True. Although character development by gradual revelation is not impossible on network television. After all, that was what made LOST so riveting (until it all unravelled). The downside of LOST is that networks have bastardized its idea (like that crappy Revolution rubbish). You can almost hear the directors musing "Hmmm . . . needs more swordfights." Networks, and by that I do mean advertisers, seem to simply favor car crashes over dialogue.

[Steve of phpBB]

Networks, and by that I do mean viewers, seem to simply favor car crashes over dialogue.

I can't remember if FIFY's are verboten, but what the hell ...

[The Sybian]

Networks, and by that I do mean viewers, seem to simply favor car crashes over dialogue.

I can't remember if FIFY's are verboten, but what the hell ...

If FIFYs are banned, I can't be a Swamper anymore. [/cue banning of FIFYs]

[Weatherfrog]

I love the new S.H.I.E.L.D. show. Am I alone in this? Am I too much of a nerd?

[degenerasian]

I love the new S.H.I.E.L.D. show. Am I alone in this? Am I too much of a nerd?

I had totally forgotten about this show so after your post I watched Episode 1. I really enjoyed it. I'm not really an avengers fan and don't really know the background so I'm taking this series on it's own merit. I like the setup. The main characters are a bit mysterious, the supporting characters are goofy. We really don't know what's going on, who are really the good guys or bad guys. How did hacker girl come to be hacker girl and who's side is she really on?

So it's got a hook. I haven't seen Episode 2 yet.

[rass]

I love the new S.H.I.E.L.D. show. Am I alone in this? Am I too much of a nerd?

No. Yes.