Final Four 2014

[Joe K]

At the same time, I HATE what Cal has been doing at Kentucky (and started at Memphis). I don't think it's good for the sport to have a program that serves only as a defacto minor league for the NBA. I doubt most of those kids give two shits about Kentucky or even college hoops as a whole. They are there because the rules say they have to go somewhere and Kentucky looks like the surest bet for one-and-done riches. Why not pool up and enjoy some brief Miami Heat-like success?

I'm pretty sure that if I were a Kentucky fan I'd feel pretty ambivalent about this recent success.

As one of the Kentucky fans on this board, I'm going to have to say that I've enjoyed the Calipari years much more than the 10 years that preceded them. Obviously the Gillispie years were a disaster, but when Tubby Smith was the coach, Kentucky was reasonably successful while sticking to a more traditional college sports model. (Off the top of my head, Rondo is the the only guy I recall from the Tubby Smith era who was good enough to go pro after 1 or 2 seasons.) Also, for what it's worth, Kentucky's players have consistently done well in the classroom the past few years. I don't know if that's because UK is following the UNC AFAM studies model, but at least some of their recent players (e.g., Brandon Knight) were also excellent students in high school.

As for the whole "defacto minor league" point, there's an easy fix: follow the lead of baseball, and eliminate the age rule altogether but require players who enroll in college to stay for 2 or 3 years. But as long as the rules require guys like Anthony Davis to go to college -- even though everyone knew he was a sure thing as a pro prospect -- I'll gladly take them at Kentucky. And it's not like other top programs aren't also going after 1-and-done players. Kansas, UCLA, Duke, and Texas have all had multiple 1-and-dones over the past few years. It's just that Calipari has done the the best job of recruiting and developing them.

[Joe K]

Team wearing blue rumbles and stumbles its way through the regular season, gets crazy hot/lucky in the playoffs, beats a team from New England in the final. Nope, never seen that happen before.

As maddeningly inconsistent and turnover prone as the Harrison twins were all season, the Eli Manning comparison isn't a bad one.

[Rex]

Where might I find this game? TruTV? Oxygen? Telemundo?

[brian]

This is literally men against boys.

[DSafetyGuy]

Since the academic aspects of the early-departing players has been brought up, I'll ask this here.

Anyone know anything specific about the APR requirements beyond "must leave the school in good academic standing"? If that's all it is, basically any freshman likely to turn pro can just take some easy core/elective classes without declaring a major and as long as they survive those easy classes without hurting the program's future eligibility. In that scenario, if a coach (Calipari, in this instance) is willing to use a recruiting platform of "I will do everything I can to prep you for the NBA in one year, but in return I need you to do everything you can to pass the easiest platform of classes we can put together for you for that same year", that should be quite appealing to recruits.

[Shirley]

And it's not like other top programs aren't also going after 1-and-done players. Kansas, UCLA, Duke, and Texas have all had multiple 1-and-dones over the past few years. It's just that Calipari has done the the best job of recruiting and developing them.

The difference is that Kentucky is getting one-and-done teams. There's a weird disposable, fast food quality to what's happening.

That said, when you compare it to the Smith/Gillispie years, I guess I can understand where you're coming from. If I were a fan though, I think I'd prefer to get 1-2 McDonalds a year instead of 5-6. It would create more continuity and the ability to watch some kids grow over their career.

[brian]

And it's not like other top programs aren't also going after 1-and-done players. Kansas, UCLA, Duke, and Texas have all had multiple 1-and-dones over the past few years. It's just that Calipari has done the the best job of recruiting and developing them.

The difference is that Kentucky is getting one-and-done teams. There's a weird disposable, fast food quality to what's happening.

That said, when you compare it to the Smith/Gillispie years, I guess I can understand where you're coming from. If I were a fan though, I think I'd prefer to get 1-2 McDonalds a year instead of 5-6. It would create more continuity and the ability to watch some kids grow over their career.

C'mon. You're talking about a fan base that embraced one of the most invenerate cheaters in the history of the game. They don't fucking care.

[brian]

That's not 5 star free throw shooting.

[sancarlos]

So, Buick. What, exactly are you saying about your past products?

[Joe K]

That's not 5 star free throw shooting.

When your favorite conference has won 1 championship in the last 25 years, taking joy in rooting against Kentucky is probably a good call.

[brian]

That's not 5 star free throw shooting.

When your favorite conference has won 1 championship in the last 25 years, taking joy in rooting against Kentucky is probably a good call.

It's OK kemosabe. This Final Four is going to be vacated too one day. I gotta present for you too once I get home.

[Joe K]

That's not 5 star free throw shooting.

When your favorite conference has won 1 championship in the last 25 years, taking joy in rooting against Kentucky is probably a good call.

It's OK kemosabe. This Final Four is going to be vacated too one day. I gotta present for you too once I get home.

As a Michigan fan, do you still count the 1992 and 1993 Final Fours?

[mister d]

So we accept that one-and-done is going to happen due to the NBA forcing players to wait a year, but we don't like if they all go to the same place?

[brian]

As a Michigan fan, do you still count the 1992 and 1993 Final Fours?

I didn't go to Michigan. So I don't know what you're talking about.

[A_B]

I'm so happy for brian.

[Joe K]

As a Michigan fan, do you still count the 1992 and 1993 Final Fours?

I didn't go to Michigan. So I don't know what you're talking about.

"As a Michigan fan" isn't the same thing as "as a Michigan alum," but fair enough. Since you're not a Wolverines fan, I'm glad you got to enjoy all the excitement of the Kentucky-Michigan game! That ending sure was exciting!

[A_B]

And it's not like other top programs aren't also going after 1-and-done players. Kansas, UCLA, Duke, and Texas have all had multiple 1-and-dones over the past few years. It's just that Calipari has done the the best job of recruiting and developing them.

The difference is that Kentucky is getting one-and-done teams. There's a weird disposable, fast food quality to what's happening.

That said, when you compare it to the Smith/Gillispie years, I guess I can understand where you're coming from. If I were a fan though, I think I'd prefer to get 1-2 McDonalds a year instead of 5-6. It would create more continuity and the ability to watch some kids grow over their career.

I said same thing a few weeks ago. That said, we were in title game while central michigan wasnt so its a solid season

[Joe K]

The sting of Kentucky losing is lessened by Shabazz Napier's "This is what happens when you ban us" line after the game. That's awesome. I can't think of a better way to point out the absurdity of the NCAA.

P.S. Have the Knicks hired Kevin Ollie as coach yet?

[brian]

As a Michigan fan, do you still count the 1992 and 1993 Final Fours?

I didn't go to Michigan. So I don't know what you're talking about.

"As a Michigan fan" isn't the same thing as "as a Michigan alum," but fair enough. Since you're not a Wolverines fan, I'm glad you got to enjoy all the excitement of the Kentucky-Michigan game! That ending sure was exciting!

I said as much in the Sweet 16 thread if you had bothered to notice

[brian]

I think the takeaway from tonight is Kentucky basketball fans are way too sensitive. I'm giving you all hugs with the hundreds of dollars of easy money I made on UConn tonight.

[DC47]

And it's not like other top programs aren't also going after 1-and-done players. Kansas, UCLA, Duke, and Texas have all had multiple 1-and-dones over the past few years. It's just that Calipari has done the the best job of recruiting and developing them.

The difference is that Kentucky is getting one-and-done teams. There's a weird disposable, fast food quality to what's happening.

That said, when you compare it to the Smith/Gillispie years, I guess I can understand where you're coming from. If I were a fan though, I think I'd prefer to get 1-2 McDonalds a year instead of 5-6. It would create more continuity and the ability to watch some kids grow over their career.

I said same thing a few weeks ago. That said, we were in title game while central michigan wasnt so its a solid season

UK fans can enjoy watching their basketball recruits grow throughout their careers ... in pro basketball. It's kind of like fine wine, given a long aging time. Lesser schools typically get a close look at their recruits for 2 to 4 years, then most of them disappear from view entirely. The Kentucky experience is more of a long-term relationship, albeit much of it is long-distance. But that's modern times.

I find two things amazing about UK under Calipari. First, he hasn't been caught cheating. It's possible that he's running one of the more ethical big-time programs. Yes, that's damning with faint praise. But still. Surprise to me.

Second, he hasn't had a problem where big-time recruits stay for more than one year (due to injury, poor performance) and create a problem for the next class of big-time recruits. For example, Pothyress presumably was assumed to be a one-and-done player. He stayed. But somehow this did not cause one of the recruits who followed him to go public with dissatisfaction over what he had been told about playing time during this recruitment. Is this just luck? Or is Calipari careful to never lead players in a recruit class to believe that playing time is a given? There seems to be little dissent in Lexington, and I don't recall a player quitting (or getting tossed).

I didn't think Calipari's UK stint would turn out nearly as well as it has. Yes, it hasn't been many years. But it's amazing to me how well he's doing. Other schools can get players who are at least as good as his best (e.g., Duke and Kansas last year.) But no one is really competing with him in terms of bringing in the same volume of top recruits who have significant potential to leave in one year.

[Rex]

When Duke takes over the one-and-done model from UK next season, people will see it in a more positive light.

[Joe K]

I find two things amazing about UK under Calipari. First, he hasn't been caught cheating. It's possible that he's running one of the more ethical big-time programs. Yes, that's damning with faint praise. But still. Surprise to me.

Second, he hasn't had a problem where big-time recruits stay for more than one year (due to injury, poor performance) and create a problem for the next class of big-time recruits. For example, Pothyress presumably was assumed to be a one-and-done player. He stayed. But somehow this did not cause one of the recruits who followed him to go public with dissatisfaction over what he had been told about playing time during this recruitment. Is this just luck? Or is Calipari careful to never lead players in a recruit class to believe that playing time is a given? There seems to be little dissent in Lexington, and I don't recall a player quitting (or getting tossed).

On the first point, I think the answer is that all the top football and basketball programs are dirty (at least to some degree), so the NCAA isn't going to dig too deep and slaughter that cash cow. Case in point, the UNC academic scandal was absurd, but you don't hear anyone calling for Roy Williams's job. Similarly, there are a lot of rumors about Alabama football players cashing in, but Saban has avoided scandal. And I don't expect to see too much discussion of UConn's very recent stint on academic probation in the wake of their win tonight.

On the second point, that's not exactly true. Calipari kind of pushed out Ryan Harrow and Kyle Wiltjer last year to make room for this year's class. But I do think that he has done a pretty masterful job of managing egos on all of his young teams.

[Brontoburglar]

I was there!

[DC47]

With Duke in the game, the one-and-done year will be comparable to a young lad taking a post-grad fellowship at Oxford. It will be a unique educational and cultural year that will allow him to grow intellectually and emotionally. He will depart Duke with a more sophisticated world-view and a fully-developed aesthetic. Truly a citizen of the world, prepared to contribute to the solution of global problems.

Also, he will play some ball and qualify to become quite wealthy at age 19. That is of course a secondary matter.

[DC47]

On the first point, I think the answer is that all the top football and basketball programs are dirty (at least to some degree), so the NCAA isn't going to dig too deep and slaughter that cash cow. Case in point, the UNC academic scandal was absurd, but you don't hear anyone calling for Roy Williams's job. Similarly, there are a lot of rumors about Alabama football players cashing in, but Saban has avoided scandal. And I don't expect to see too much discussion of UConn's very recent stint on academic probation in the wake of their win tonight.

No doubt 90% of major college programs are committing multiple major violations at any point in time. However, at some the extent of the violations plus the degree of general scrutiny of the program significantly raise the odds that they'll get caught. So I'm surprised that Kentucky is clean so far during Calipari's tenure.

On the second point, that's not exactly true. Calipari kind of pushed out Ryan Harrow and Kyle Wiltjer last year to make room for this year's class. But I do think that he has done a pretty masterful job of managing egos on all of his young teams.

Would those guys have really pressured any of the incoming freshman for playing time?

James Young grew up around here. Many thought he was foolish for committing early to KY given the talent that he'd be competing with (Pothyress, Harrison the shooting guard, perhaps others I don't know of) for playing time and shots. I guess he wasn't considered by all to be a truly national-level talent like Randle and the Harrisons. He said (publicly) that he had always been in love with UK and wasn't afraid to compete with the best. So he stuck with UK. And it has worked out well for him apparently. But many thought he was taking a big chance. Could it be that Calipari is an excellent judge of who to recruit? It's not an easy thing to figure out if a 16 year old is going to make it big as a freshman. Even with the best talent and AAU as a measuring stick.

[A_B]

On the first point, I think the answer is that all the top football and basketball programs are dirty (at least to some degree), so the NCAA isn't going to dig too deep and slaughter that cash cow. Case in point, the UNC academic scandal was absurd, but you don't hear anyone calling for Roy Williams's job. Similarly, there are a lot of rumors about Alabama football players cashing in, but Saban has avoided scandal. And I don't expect to see too much discussion of UConn's very recent stint on academic probation in the wake of their win tonight.

No doubt 90% of major college programs are committing multiple major violations at any point in time. However, at some the extent of the violations plus the degree of general scrutiny of the program significantly raise the odds that they'll get caught. So I'm surprised that Kentucky is clean so far during Calipari's tenure.

On the second point, that's not exactly true. Calipari kind of pushed out Ryan Harrow and Kyle Wiltjer last year to make room for this year's class. But I do think that he has done a pretty masterful job of managing egos on all of his young teams.

Would those guys have really pressured any of the incoming freshman for playing time?

James Young grew up around here. Many thought he was foolish for committing early to KY given the talent that he'd be competing with (Pothyress, Harrison the shooting guard, perhaps others I don't know of) for playing time and shots. I guess he wasn't considered by all to be a truly national-level talent like Randle and the Harrisons. He said (publicly) that he had always been in love with UK and wasn't afraid to compete with the best. So he stuck with UK. And it has worked out well for him apparently. But many thought he was taking a big chance. Could it be that Calipari is an excellent judge of who to recruit? It's not an easy thing to figure out if a 16 year old is going to make it big as a freshman. Even with the best talent and AAU as a measuring stick.

Wiltjer coulda have helped this team in Jan/Feb but would have hurt them in March.

[Joe K]

Would those guys have really pressured any of the incoming freshman for playing time?

James Young grew up around here. Many thought he was foolish for committing early to KY given the talent that he'd be competing with (Pothyress, Harrison the shooting guard, perhaps others I don't know of) for playing time and shots. I guess he wasn't considered by all to be a truly national-level talent like Randle and the Harrisons. He said (publicly) that he had always been in love with UK and wasn't afraid to compete with the best. So he stuck with UK. And it has worked out well for him apparently. But many thought he was taking a big chance. Could it be that Calipari is an excellent judge of who to recruit? It's not an easy thing to figure out if a 16 year old is going to make it big as a freshman. Even with the best talent and AAU as a measuring stick.

Next year should be interesting on this front. I assume that Randle, Young, and Cauley-Stein will all go pro. I'm not sure about the Harrisons. A month ago, I would have said that they'd be crazy to leave, but the tournament run may change their minds. Assuming no other early exits, their front-court next year will be loaded, with Johnson, Poythress, Lee, and their top two incoming recruits (Towns and Lyles). Tough to split up minutes among five PF/Cs.

[tennbengal]

Dave, Calipari used the more traditional "one and done" model at Memphis, where he would have only one such player a year (if that) and would have a more veteran traditional team around the talented "one and done" player. The most successful for him was the Derrick Rose finals team, but Rose was surrounded with veteran 3 and 4 year players in the line-up.

Calipari never pulled off (nor did he try, nor could he at Memphis I don't think) the mass team of "one and dones" model that he has been successful with at Kentucky.

[kranepool]

Goddamnit, Seattle.



link

[Shirley]

Calipari never pulled off (nor did he try, nor could he at Memphis I don't think) the mass team of "one and dones" model that he has been successful with at Kentucky.

He would have if he'd stayed one more year. Instead, he took those guys with him to Kentucky (Wall, Cousins, etc.) and it's been a revolving door of superstars ever since.

BTW, despite my not liking the technique and my not liking Calipari, I give him credit for doing some impressive coaching. Yes, it's easier to teach talented players, but he DOES generally get them to buy in and play D. He's also successfully managed those few cases where the guy didn't quite work out and had to return for a second year. I can't imagine Poythress ever expected to not only not be in the NBA this season, but to be coming off the bench behind a bunch of freshmen.

Still, I have to think that the collective psyche of the program has to be somewhat fragile. With this much turnover, you can't really build on success, so you have to hope you always get a good mix of kids. I thought maybe it was crumbling after last year's fumbles and this year's start, but Calipari righted the ship. Pretty impressive.

But then, he has to do it all over again next year.

[tennbengal]

Dunno Dave, the Lakers will not be able to bring in those kinds of recruits.

[Joe K]

Dunno Dave, the Lakers will not be able to bring in those kinds of recruits.

Rumors aside, I'd be surprised if Calipari leaves Kentucky this offseason. His skill-set (recruiting, motivating young players, etc.) seems to fit much better with the college game than with the NBA. While he's a decent Xs and Os coach, I don't think that Calipari is as strong a tactician as the top NBA coaches. He's not alone in this regard; I think guys like Popovich, Thibodeau, and Rivers would coach circles around almost all of the big name college coaches.

I would expect that NBA teams will open up the vault for Kevin Ollie, however. I was very impressed with Ollie's ability to win a championship with a roster that was pretty thin after Napier, Boatright, and Daniels. Supposedly Ollie is very reluctant to ask his family to move again given that he was such a journeyman as a player, but I would expect the Knicks to make him a big offer this offseason.

[DC47]

Prediction: Kevin Ollie moves to Detroit next season, as the Pistons brings back Rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon, and Charlie Villanueva and drafts Napier and Boatright. Add them to Andre Drummond and you have a UConn core. Perhaps Thabeet is still playing ball somewhere and could join them as back-up center.

Of course, this will all be triggered by Jim Calhoun replacing Joe Dumars as President and GM.

[DSafetyGuy]

Phil Jackson is not bringing someone who will not install the triangle offense to the Knicks. It is pretty universally believed that Steve Kerr will be making his head coaching debut next season and will do so with the Knicks.

Durant speaks very, very highly of Ollie from their time together as players in the NBA, so Ollie is often mentioned going to the Thunder if they have a disappointing end to their season. For them, anything short of a title qualifies as "disappointing", as they can say Brooks has taken them as far as he can and they need a new voice as rationale to change coaches.

[cerrano]

Goddamnit, Seattle.



link

hey, ku's shaolin-do team led by alex booty could come through and pull tyler black's you-know-what out of the fire.

[Bensell]

I don't have anything to add other than I wish that Kentucky had started playing like they did the last month sooner as the regular season was brutal.

I think Randle & Young are gone for sure. Willie Cauley-Stein seems to be going back and forth, as do the twins. I highly doubt anyone outside of those 5 go, but I guess there is a chance that Dakari goes.

ETA - Catching up on the Swamp because I woke up hungover Tuesday and by night time I had the stomach flu that my nephew and niece brought back from Disney World for my souvenir