CUBE LIFE! Office Etiquette

[GoodKarma]

So sorry to hear...that is tragic.

[sancarlos]

Yeah not really OK. I've worked with her for nearly 13 years. Just got an update from her sister. "not looking good. no more response to pain and gag. next test is to check brain activity. she was responding earlier. now nothing. basically machine".

My team is going to be devastated if she passes. There are several of us who have worked together for over a decade.

Oh jeez. Sorry, man.

[Nonlinear FC]

Sorry to hear that, Giff.

In December I'll have been at my place for a decade. By far the longest I've ever stayed somewhere. And, yeah, these are people that have been on this team either that entire run or I hired shortly after I got here. Folks getting married, divorced, having kids... parents passing.

We've kept things as "work family" and don't get into each other's personal shit (too often), but there's a genuine affection.

Can't imagine going through what you're dealing with.

[mister d]

Sorry, Giff. Aneurysms are terrifying in both their suddenness and the impact.

[rass]

Sorry man

[EnochRoot]

Oh man. I'm sorry Giff.

[Giff]

Thanks y’all.

They’re taking her off life support this morning.

[Johnny Carwash]

That's awful, Giff. I'm sorry.

[DSafetyGuy]

Sorry, Giff.

[Steve of phpBB]

I’m so sorry, Giff. That’s so sad.

[Shirley]

OK, I guess I'll type up my story. Obviously it's nothing like Giff's sad story.

A bit of background - I'm a product manager (PM) at a pretty successful company that makes security and IT operations software. This past summer, our CEO abruptly hired a new Chief Product Officer (CPO), which surprised our whole team, including the CPO we already had. He got bumped down to SVP, reporting to the new CPO.

There have been a series of reorgs in the group since then. My boss was let go in August, and then the replacement boss left on his own a few weeks ago. My team that reported to him was three of us, me (at the company 3.5 years), T (a guy about my age and 2 years at the company), and J (a woman about 20 years younger than us and 1.5 years at the company). When our boss left, we started reporting directly to the SVP (the former CPO). I was under the impression it would stay that way.

In a team meeting a couple of weeks ago, the new CPO was talking through a few changes in our org (again), and casually mentioned that J was now taking over our team and T and I now report to her. That's how I learned - on a call with about 25 other people and no other explanation.

To recap - I now report to a former peer who I considered someone I could help mentor. I have WAY more experience in software, I've been a PM for longer, I've been at this company for longer, and I have a more technical background (I'm a former developer, while she started as a tech writer). Nothing against her, I like her and think she's good at what she does, but I've never had a manager who didn't have SOME experiential advantage over me.

So yeah, I'm looking now.

[sancarlos]

Well, that sucks. Good luck, Dave.

[DaveInSeattle]

To recap - I now report to a former peer who I considered someone I could help mentor. I have WAY more experience in software, I've been a PM for longer, I've been at this company for longer, and I have a more technical background (I'm a former developer, while she started as a tech writer). Nothing against her, I like her and think she's good at what she does, but I've never had a manager who didn't have SOME experiential advantage over me.

I'll ask the (to me anyways) obvious question: Is she attractive? Single? Is the CPO trying to put the moves on her?

So yeah, I'm looking now.

Don't blame you at all. Good luck!

[Shirley]

To recap - I now report to a former peer who I considered someone I could help mentor. I have WAY more experience in software, I've been a PM for longer, I've been at this company for longer, and I have a more technical background (I'm a former developer, while she started as a tech writer). Nothing against her, I like her and think she's good at what she does, but I've never had a manager who didn't have SOME experiential advantage over me.

I'll ask the (to me anyways) obvious question: Is she attractive? Single? Is the CPO trying to put the moves on her?

Sure, and I think so. But that's not it. She lives in Vermont and he's in Redmond, WA. I'm reasonably sure they've never actually met in person. I talked to the former CPO about it. Apparently she gave a demo that our CEO and his father (the Chairman) liked. So they like her. And also, she apparently spoke up when our boss left and asked for the position. She's been in the somewhat enviable position of being PM of a brand-new product that the CEO is excited about. So, she hasn't had much time to deal with angry customers and get negative feedback. My currently module (which I took over from her) is a high-stress one - lots of value, lots of customers, and relatively lots of problems. The first four PMs on my module were all eventually fired.

[EnochRoot]

To recap - I now report to a former peer who I considered someone I could help mentor. I have WAY more experience in software, I've been a PM for longer, I've been at this company for longer, and I have a more technical background (I'm a former developer, while she started as a tech writer). Nothing against her, I like her and think she's good at what she does, but I've never had a manager who didn't have SOME experiential advantage over me.

I'll ask the (to me anyways) obvious question: Is she attractive? Single? Is the CPO trying to put the moves on her?

Sure, and I think so. But that's not it. She lives in Vermont and he's in Redmond, WA. I'm reasonably sure they've never actually met in person. I talked to the former CPO about it. Apparently she gave a demo that our CEO and his father (the Chairman) liked. So they like her. And also, she apparently spoke up when our boss left and asked for the position. She's been in the somewhat enviable position of being PM of a brand-new product that the CEO is excited about. So, she hasn't had much time to deal with angry customers and get negative feedback. My currently module (which I took over from her) is a high-stress one - lots of value, lots of customers, and relatively lots of problems. The first four PMs on my module were all eventually fired.

Are you providing monitoring in addition to the SIEM software? I feel like I may have asked this before.

[Steve of phpBB]

Sounds very frustrating, Dave. That sucks. It definitely sounds like it’s time to at least see what else is out there.

[Shirley]

To recap - I now report to a former peer who I considered someone I could help mentor. I have WAY more experience in software, I've been a PM for longer, I've been at this company for longer, and I have a more technical background (I'm a former developer, while she started as a tech writer). Nothing against her, I like her and think she's good at what she does, but I've never had a manager who didn't have SOME experiential advantage over me.

I'll ask the (to me anyways) obvious question: Is she attractive? Single? Is the CPO trying to put the moves on her?

Sure, and I think so. But that's not it. She lives in Vermont and he's in Redmond, WA. I'm reasonably sure they've never actually met in person. I talked to the former CPO about it. Apparently she gave a demo that our CEO and his father (the Chairman) liked. So they like her. And also, she apparently spoke up when our boss left and asked for the position. She's been in the somewhat enviable position of being PM of a brand-new product that the CEO is excited about. So, she hasn't had much time to deal with angry customers and get negative feedback. My currently module (which I took over from her) is a high-stress one - lots of value, lots of customers, and relatively lots of problems. The first four PMs on my module were all eventually fired.

Are you providing monitoring in addition to the SIEM software? I feel like I may have asked this before.

We aren't really a SIEM, although we can feed one. If you're curious, here's a demo video by our CEO - Our product is actually pretty cool.

[EnochRoot]

To recap - I now report to a former peer who I considered someone I could help mentor. I have WAY more experience in software, I've been a PM for longer, I've been at this company for longer, and I have a more technical background (I'm a former developer, while she started as a tech writer). Nothing against her, I like her and think she's good at what she does, but I've never had a manager who didn't have SOME experiential advantage over me.

I'll ask the (to me anyways) obvious question: Is she attractive? Single? Is the CPO trying to put the moves on her?

Sure, and I think so. But that's not it. She lives in Vermont and he's in Redmond, WA. I'm reasonably sure they've never actually met in person. I talked to the former CPO about it. Apparently she gave a demo that our CEO and his father (the Chairman) liked. So they like her. And also, she apparently spoke up when our boss left and asked for the position. She's been in the somewhat enviable position of being PM of a brand-new product that the CEO is excited about. So, she hasn't had much time to deal with angry customers and get negative feedback. My currently module (which I took over from her) is a high-stress one - lots of value, lots of customers, and relatively lots of problems. The first four PMs on my module were all eventually fired.

Are you providing monitoring in addition to the SIEM software? I feel like I may have asked this before.

We aren't really a SIEM, although we can feed one. If you're curious, here's a demo video by our CEO - Our product is actually pretty cool.

That looks good. So instead of databases, it polls the actual datasources, removing the need for an intermediary database. I'd be curious how it can help achieve that high a success rate for patch rollouts. Does it tap into some type of preexisting policy? Or does it have teeth where it can enforce restrictions?

The term Tanium sounds like a tool you would access if you were writing python.

[Shirley]

That looks good. So instead of databases, it polls the actual datasources, removing the need for an intermediary database. I'd be curious how it can help achieve that high a success rate for patch rollouts. Does it tap into some type of preexisting policy? Or does it have teeth where it can enforce restrictions?

Yeah, no central database (although there is a cache). We get live answers from endpoints, even if there are hundreds of thousands or millions. I'm not an expert on our Patch module, but there are a lot of configuration options. It works really well - much better than SCCM. (probably way off topic for the Office Etiquette thread now!)

[cerranoredux]

Thanks y’all.

They’re taking her off life support this morning.

Sorry, Giff.

[bfj]

I make presentations for a living now. Every week I make anywhere between 5-7 live trainings to police/fire/ems that range 2-6 hours. I also present to schools, restaurants, hotels, wherever about understanding autism and other intellectual developmental disabilities. The point is I train a lot by myself.

This week I have to allow someone else to train while I watch because we are trying to train new trainers. This is torture. He’s not good, but I can’t just take over because they are grooming him as a new trainer. I feel bad for the cops who have to watch because a. he’s boring and struggling and b. they aren’t getting what they need from our typical training.

I know there’s no other way to learn it. You have to do it live to get better. But man, this is hard to listen to. I’m not looking forward to the post training debrief.

Edit - this is also the week that the training coordinator is sitting in after hearing how great it’s been the last 6 weeks (when I was teaching).

[Steve of phpBB]

That sounds very frustrating. Do you think the new guy will figure it out?

[Shirley]

I make presentations for a living now. Every week I make anywhere between 5-7 live trainings to police/fire/ems that range 2-6 hours. I also present to schools, restaurants, hotels, wherever about understanding autism and other intellectual developmental disabilities. The point is I train a lot by myself.

This week I have to allow someone else to train while I watch because we are trying to train new trainers. This is torture. He’s not good, but I can’t just take over because they are grooming him as a new trainer. I feel bad for the cops who have to watch because a. he’s boring and struggling and b. they aren’t getting what they need from our typical training.

I know there’s no other way to learn it. You have to do it live to get better. But man, this is hard to listen to. I’m not looking forward to the post training debrief.

Edit - this is also the week that the training coordinator is sitting in after hearing how great it’s been the last 6 weeks (when I was teaching).

First off - what you are doing is fantastic! You're literally going to save lives with that.

Second - watching someone who sucks at presenting is brutal. Anyone can learn to be better though. Maybe never great, but certainly better. He's probably just very nervous.

[elflaco2]

i see Giff asking managerial questions on the HR chat (where workday is finally taking ove the world).
carry on.

[The Sybian]

I make presentations for a living now. Every week I make anywhere between 5-7 live trainings to police/fire/ems that range 2-6 hours. I also present to schools, restaurants, hotels, wherever about understanding autism and other intellectual developmental disabilities. The point is I train a lot by myself.

This week I have to allow someone else to train while I watch because we are trying to train new trainers. This is torture. He’s not good, but I can’t just take over because they are grooming him as a new trainer. I feel bad for the cops who have to watch because a. he’s boring and struggling and b. they aren’t getting what they need from our typical training.

I know there’s no other way to learn it. You have to do it live to get better. But man, this is hard to listen to. I’m not looking forward to the post training debrief.

Edit - this is also the week that the training coordinator is sitting in after hearing how great it’s been the last 6 weeks (when I was teaching).

Funny timing on your post, I was in the middle of training a colleague to conduct a training. Pre-COVID we used to conduct training onsite for clients across the country, so I used to teach "Train the Trainer" courses and we had a couple dozen people "qualified" to present. We still aren't allowed to onsite with clients for some reason, and since they completely revamped the training material 2 years ago, I'm the only person presenting this training. What I'm doing with this guy is co-presenting and giving him more responsibility each time. My coworker is a good presenter, but since a lot of the material crosses into the legal realm and he isn't a lawyer, he is lacking confidence in handling questions or trusting his knowledge level.

The Director of the training team got territorial over some of her work and refused my sage advice on some of the material. It flat out sucks, and her hypotheticals are insanely long and packed with details, and no group has ever gotten the point of what it's supposed to convey. Since our Legal dept must approve all slides, I can't put my own spin and stories in writing. Long story short, this co-presenting is working well. When he misses a point, I chime in. The biggest issue is keeping him on track. I've presented this material so many times, I know exactly how much to speed up or tell stories to fill the time. He will spend 75% of the time on the first quarter of the material without realizing, so I have him skip stupid hypotheticals or prompt him to keep it moving. When he gets unsure of something, he will pose it as a question to me and let me cover the material. Not sure if that is feasible with your presentations, but it's a good way to get the new guy more comfortable, and my coworker started internalizing and repeating my stories as if they were his own, so he is getting much better each time. That said, he is a good presenter and has a skillset your guy might never have.

[bfj]

That sounds very frustrating. Do you think the new guy will figure it out?

He might, but he came off very unprepared today and that is what worries me. It was his 2nd time doing the training by himself and he shows up with no notes, no copy of the presentation, nothing. Basically trying to wing a 2 hour, 63 slide presentation. That’s ridiculous. I don’t need notes because I’ve done it literally hundreds of times. But it took me a long time to get to that point.

He trains again on Thursday. I plan to talk to him tomorrow about today.

[Steve of phpBB]

That sounds very frustrating. Do you think the new guy will figure it out?

He might, but he came off very unprepared today and that is what worries me. It was his 2nd time doing the training by himself and he shows up with no notes, no copy of the presentation, nothing. Basically trying to wing a 2 hour, 63 slide presentation. That’s ridiculous. I don’t need notes because I’ve done it literally hundreds of times. But it took me a long time to get to that point.

He trains again on Thursday. I plan to talk to him tomorrow about today.

Oof. That’s a problem. That shit is way too important and detailed for a guy to just wing it.

[mister d]

"Now imagine a similar scenario, but in this version, the person of interest is artistic. How might that change your approach?"

[rass]

8AM call that took an hour directly into a 9AM call meant I just had to take a mid-call shit.

[sancarlos]

8AM call that took an hour directly into a 9AM call meant I just had to take a mid-call shit.

Underrated advantage of working remotely.

[mister d]

"Hey hi can anyone hear me ... hello ... just checking ... [massive shit noises] ... testing ..."

[The Sybian]

8AM call that took an hour directly into a 9AM call meant I just had to take a mid-call shit.

Underrated advantage of working remotely.

Rass isn't above shitting his pants in a full conference room.

ETA: As long as he isn't wearing his sexy new joggers.

[Shirley]

I've said it before, but when you're on mute and fart loud enough that Zoom/Teams reminds you that you're on mute if you're trying to talk ... well, it just makes me so proud.

[Jerloma]

My new company was granting 4 weeks PTO, plus holidays which is amazing. Well they recently changed it apparently to an open PTO policy, which means you can take as much PTO as you want with no parameters whatsoever. That also sounds amazing but I hate it. I don't want to police my own time off at all and there's no way I'll take even close to 4 weeks, especially as a new employee. They say the amount of PTO you choose to take does not factor into your performance, but how can it not? Like, there has to be a subjective point where it becomes a problem.

[P.D.X.]

They just count on everyone to mindfuck themselves just like that.

[mister d]

Yup. Instead of taking some days just because you have them to use, you just work like normal.

[The Sybian]

My new company was granting 4 weeks PTO, plus holidays which is amazing. Well they recently changed it apparently to an open PTO policy, which means you can take as much PTO as you want with no parameters whatsoever. That also sounds amazing but I hate it. I don't want to police my own time off at all and there's no way I'll take even close to 4 weeks, especially as a new employee. They say the amount of PTO you choose to take does not factor into your performance, but how can it not? Like, there has to be a subjective point where it becomes a problem.

Discretionary Time Off is a big trend, especially in the Tech and startup world. It's an absolute nightmare from a Legal/HR standpoint and was the bane of my existence for awhile when I had to persuade clients not to switch to DTO. We eventually created a document explaining all the pitfalls and if clients wanted to be stupid, we wouldn't stop them. Now I think we refuse to create DTO policies, at least in California. From an employee relations standpoint, the issue is exactly what you said. Employees feel guilty for taking vacation days, but if you accrue days or have a use it or lose it, employees feel compelled to take vacation days more often, and employers should encourage employees to use vacation days, as it makes them happy and more productive.

The legal nightmare comes in situations where an employee has a medical issue or family member with a medical issue and takes a month or two off, then decides to use their 12 weeks FMLA leave. Employers try to count the previous month off as part of the FMLA, but they can't do it. Another big problem is in states where employers are required to pay out unused vacation days at termination. Some employers say they don't have to pay anything because nothing accrues. There have been some crazy lawsuits where employees claim their coworker took off 50 days last year, so since they could have taken 50 days off, they should be paid out for 50 unused vacation days. California courts are finding for the employees.

Pre-COVID the father of one of my daughter's friends was ranting about people running the "work from home scam." I was working from home and let him rant on while my friend was trying hard not to laugh. He was saying nobody would get work done, it's like a permanent vacation, they watch TV all day. Then I said, "I work from home" and he got all flustered and embarrassed. Two minutes later he talks about how his company has unlimited vacation and he took off 45 days already that year. We told him he is abusing the system and nobody is supposed to take that much time off. He kept saying "but you are allowed to." You won't be surprised that he is the same guy I mentioned before who kept flying a "Trump 2020 No More Bullshit" flag for almost a year after 1/6.

[mister d]

Did you ask how many he would consider too many?

[Jerloma]

Damn, Syb. I had no idea this was a thing let alone a trend. I can see how that would cause some legal issues.

Obviously, I'm not complaining. With WFH and the fact that I get to set my own schedule in 4 hour shifts every week, literally any hours that I want, I could conceivably not take an hour of PTO and get my other shit done. It's just such a different world than when I started my last job...

...in 1996.

[elflaco2]

got a call from one of my managers.. advising me of the impending email to HR... staff taking smoke breaks and getting the munchies later and stinking up the joint.
very vague language in the employee manual...and its now 'legal' in that state.

waiting to see what happens..