We Doing This Shit Again? (Trump Admin Meltdown II)

[HaulCitgo]

Rather than post many words of why it’s a terrible idea I’ll just tell you to do some searches and you’ll see that tariffs at the scale Trump is implementing don’t work. There is plenty of historical evidence of that. Tariffs should be used in specific situations…I like to say they should be used as a scalpel…he’s using them as a hammer.

It only theoretically helps American manufacturing if we actually make the stuff. We import stuff because we either don’t make it or it’s cheaper. Since cheaper is off the board the result will be rising inflation.

So it’s not just because it’s Trump.

I hear you but not sure you're right. I'd be interested in the historical evidence or even a couple examples. What specific situations and are we sure this isn't it? The guy is just trying shit and the opposition can't explain why or even understand why it is bad cause it's a difficult question. I've learned that sometimes it's better to just do shit. I am not wired like that but I've seen plenty of idiots get it right just cause they did something and I've missed out on money trying to get it right. I have no idea whether he's got it right. That's ok to say

[cerranoredux]

Rather than post many words of why it’s a terrible idea I’ll just tell you to do some searches and you’ll see that tariffs at the scale Trump is implementing don’t work. There is plenty of historical evidence of that. Tariffs should be used in specific situations…I like to say they should be used as a scalpel…he’s using them as a hammer.

It only theoretically helps American manufacturing if we actually make the stuff. We import stuff because we either don’t make it or it’s cheaper. Since cheaper is off the board the result will be rising inflation.

So it’s not just because it’s Trump.

I hear you but not sure you're right. I'd be interested in the historical evidence or even a couple examples. What specific situations and are we sure this isn't it? The guy is just trying shit and the opposition can't explain why or even understand why it is bad cause it's a difficult question. I've learned that sometimes it's better to just do shit. I am not wired like that but I've seen plenty of idiots get it right just cause they did something and I've missed out on money trying to get it right. I have no idea whether he's got it right. That's ok to say

Hawley-Smoot. We good? (By the way, it sure when Presidents got the authority to impose tariff policy without input from Congress but here we are.)

[HaulCitgo]

Interesting. Thanks. Any thoughts on effect of tariffs in 30s vs post NAFTA environment. I'd be curious about North American trade then vs now. No doubt that tariffs are a cost that has to impact production. So what does that mean for joe? Anyone that will tell you probably lying.

And yes. Limits of executive power. Congress tied to the purse but foreign matters always for the prez, right? Whole rabbit hole there

[brian]

Interesting. Thanks. Any thoughts on effect of tariffs in 30s vs post NAFTA environment. I'd be curious about North American trade then vs now. No doubt that tariffs are a cost that has to impact production. So what does that mean for joe? Anyone that will tell you probably lying.

And yes. Limits of executive power. Congress tied to the purse but foreign matters always for the prez, right? Whole rabbit hole there

Trump himself negotiated the most recent free trade agreement between the US, Canada and Mexico during his first term so maybe he’s admitting he’s not very smart.

[govmentchedda]

[The Sybian]

Interesting. Thanks. Any thoughts on effect of tariffs in 30s vs post NAFTA environment. I'd be curious about North American trade then vs now. No doubt that tariffs are a cost that has to impact production. So what does that mean for joe? Anyone that will tell you probably lying.

And yes. Limits of executive power. Congress tied to the purse but foreign matters always for the prez, right? Whole rabbit hole there

I’m going with the near-unanimous predictions from economists that his tariffs will destroy our economy due to enormous inflation. It’d be great to encourage purchasing US made parts and material, but since it’ll take a decade to ramp up production, we’ll still be reliant on foreign imports. Not to mention, we are royally fucking over our closest allies.

Heather Cox Richardson had a great piece on the bullshit he pulled with imposing tariffs on Colombia. Despite causing huge spikes in prices in products we import from Colombia and US farmers would have lost billions, the biggest problem is they are a key ally for us, and China has been trying to pry them away. This opens the door for China to steal our power and influence with our allies. So no, it’s not because it’s Trump, it’s because it’s catastrophically stupid.

[EnochRoot]

The simplest explanation continues to be he is compromised.

[GoodKarma]

As Cerrano said...it is pretty well established that the tariffs and isolationist economic policies contributed to the Great Depression. Tariffs have their place on individual products or product categories but as Syb said, there is hardly anyone that thinks they are a good idea.

I can tell you why Trump et. al THINK they are good idea (the Fentanyl reason is complete BS)...it's because products from Canada and Mexico make a much smaller percentage of our imports compared to the percentage of imports our products constitute going into their countries. They want the "trade war" thinking we can wait these other countries out before they cave. They want Mexico to basically control the border for us; I haven't figured out what the end game with Canada is (other than the 51st state thing which I think is just bluster).

For me personally, I think the ship has sailed on global trade and going isolationist is just a bad idea.

[tennbengal]

So we are all starting from the same relative place w/ respect to what happened in the the last 72 hours - turning once again to former lawyer and current sharp baseball writer Craig Calcaterra (who breaks this all down as succinctly as anyone I read in his daily baseball newsletters) -

Elon Musk has perpetrated a digital and economic coup

This is not hyperbole. This is not euphemism. This is what has happened.

Since Friday, people working for Elon Musk, who do not appear to be government employees of any kind, have taken over the United States Treasury's and the Office of Personnel Management's payment mechanisms, have downloaded the most sensitive personal information of millions of Americans imaginable to private servers, and have locked actual government employees out.

Musk and his people have also taken over the General Services Administration, which is the agency responsible for government contracting. Which means he has taken possession of all the financial and personal information of everyone who does business with the federal government, including the details of government contracts, bids, company filings, and other information.

Musk and his people also have taken over the U.S. Agency for International Development, specifically taking control of its security systems, personnel files, and intelligence reports much of which is classified information and which pertains to thousands upon thousands of U.S. government workers operating overseas, many in classified roles. When Musk's people arrived at USAID headquarters its security officials, quite properly, attempted to bar access. Musk's people threatened to call in U.S. Marshalls and take the information at gunpoint, after which they forced their way in, took possession of the information they sought, and placed USAID officials on leave.

Which is to say, Elon Musk has, unilaterally and without any legal authority whatsoever:

Unlawfully taken control of the United States Treasury and intends to unilaterally cut off payments to disfavored populations both here and abroad in defiance of Congress, the courts, and the American people;
Unlawfully taken possession of personal information of hundreds of millions of Americans and thousands of U.S. government workers and has unlawfully downloaded that data to his private servers; and
Unlawfully obtained the financial and personal information of everyone who does business with the federal government, including classified information.
It is impossible to overstate the levels of illegality we're witnessing. Off the top of my head this would appear constitute theft of U.S. government property, theft of public funds, the violation of taxpayer confidentiality, the unlawful releasing of names, sources, and methods of U.S. overseas activity, and I'm sure multiple other offenses. Just as it is impossible to overstate the illegality, it is likewise impossible to overstate the seriousness of this situation. If any other person or actor had done even a fraction of what Elon Musk and those at his command have done over the past three days they would find themselves in federal prison for decades if not for life.

That being said, I honestly don't know what can possibly be done here given Trump's dictatorial control over government right now, the certainty that he would prevent the DOJ, FBI, or any other authority from investigating any of this, and the certainty that he would issue preemptive pardons for Musk and his team should anyone even think about snooping around. But a coup has occurred. A coup perpetrated by a drug-addled Nazi sympathizer and, as you'll see in the next item below, a small team of extremely young men who likely have no idea how many laws they have broken, even if that's no defense to their crimes. The nightmare will not end unless and until Elon Musk and those he has ordered to infiltrate the United States government are in shackles.

Every Democratic Member of Congress, starting with ranking member of the Senate Banking Committee, Elizabeth Warren, ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, Ron Wyden, and the ranking members of committees dealing with national security and government contracting should be holding emergency news conferences, raising the alarm, and demanding access to federal facilities, with TV cameras in tow, so it can be documented what they find or, more likely, how they are unlawfully turned away. As for the rest of us: this is the sort of thing for which a general strike is the only possible response, not that I expect such a thing could be effectively pulled off in this country.

Honestly, though, I have no idea what happens next. We are in completely uncharted waters. Nothing like this has ever happened in this history of the United States. But something has to happen in response.

The people carrying out the coup
Elon Musk is not sending an army of trusted and sophisticated operators into these government agencies as he takes them over. It appears that it's a small team of young, extremely inexperienced people who are carrying this out. From Wired:

Elon Musk’s takeover of federal government infrastructure is ongoing, and at the center of things is a coterie of engineers who are barely out of—and in at least one case, purportedly still in—college. Most have connections to Musk and at least two have connections to Musk’s longtime associate Peter Thiel, a cofounder and chairman of the analytics firm and government contractor Palantir who has long expressed opposition to democracy . . . The engineers are Akash Bobba, Edward Coristine, Luke Farritor, Gautier Cole Killian, Gavin Kliger, and Ethan Shaotran. None have responded to requests for comment from WIRED. Representatives from OPM, GSA, and DOGE did not respond to requests for comment.

The article provides brief biographical sketches of these young men. While it's all thin enough that grand conclusions about them cannot be drawn, it's inescapable that none of them are even remotely experienced in government and that they possess no security clearances whatsoever. They would appear to be Musk/Peter Thiel lackeys, willing to do whatever they are ordered to do. Fascism depends on those types and, not surprisingly, there are several of them in the fascist Musk's orbit.

Akash Bobba, Edward Coristine, Luke Farritor, Gautier Cole Killian, Gavin Kliger, and Ethan Shaotran. These are the people who have unlawfully obtained your social security number, your address, your tax history, all government contracting data, and the classified personnel and work data of a critical international government agency on the orders of a Elon Musk. All of that information now lives on Elon Musk's private servers because of their actions.

Let's make them famous. And, eventually, whenever the rule of law has been resto

red enough to where the proper authorities will be permitted to do their jobs, let's arrest them and charge them with multiple felonies.

That...last part isn't happening.

My question for the room - what are we supposed to do? Today?

[govmentchedda]

https://5calls.org/

I haven't done it yet, but I think this is worth my time.

[Jerloma]

[tennbengal]

bluesky passing the sarcastic test for me today (helps keep me a little sane)

going over all the treatment plans at my hospital with a 16-year old Musk aide, making sure he agrees we're on the right track

[degenerasian]

As Cerrano said...it is pretty well established that the tariffs and isolationist economic policies contributed to the Great Depression. Tariffs have their place on individual products or product categories but as Syb said, there is hardly anyone that thinks they are a good idea.

I can tell you why Trump et. al THINK they are good idea (the Fentanyl reason is complete BS)...it's because products from Canada and Mexico make a much smaller percentage of our imports compared to the percentage of imports our products constitute going into their countries. They want the "trade war" thinking we can wait these other countries out before they cave. They want Mexico to basically control the border for us; I haven't figured out what the end game with Canada is (other than the 51st state thing which I think is just bluster).

For me personally, I think the ship has sailed on global trade and going isolationist is just a bad idea.

That's just it, Trump doesn't care. He treating this like sports, a GM who's going to make better deals because the last GM made such stupid deals that sunk the team. And yeah, they ship has sailed. Canada is going to build more from within (awesome) and/or get better partners.

But it isn't sport. The US was about protecting its allies and nation building, spreading the democratic experiment around the world. So yeah sometimes deals look bad on paper (if you only crunch the numbers) but have lasting impact. And it's not like there haven't been disputes before. Canada and the US argue on lumber all the time and the US have slapped plenty of tariffs on it, but it's negotiated.

Trump simply wants American to get out of the nation building and alliance business. Undo all deals where the Americans have been 'ripped off' and bring industry and jobs back to America, or so he thinks. USAid is being cancelled today, not more US money going to anyone.

[A_B]

Once TFG gets a whiff that Elon is becoming more popular than he(TFG), it's curtains. Nearly every role is his first administration turned over at least once. And Elon's probably going to be the one that tightens his own noose because he can't stay out of his own way. Elon probably thinks he's (Elon) working some bulletproof blackmail angle too so he can't be got shed of.

My god what a terrible fucking paragraph.

[A_B]

Trump simply wants American to get out of the nation building and alliance business. Undo all deals where the Americans have been 'ripped off' and bring industry and jobs back to America, or so he thinks. USAid is being cancelled today, not more US money going to anyone.

Not even close to "simply wants to". He'd be happy nation building when it's the Trump Canal hosted by Trump Panamanian Grand Tower. if the "building" is making more things America, well then, you fix the immigrant problem inherently.

[duff]

Elon got everything he wants right now. Unfiltered access to information.

[P.D.X.]

that plus the trillions of dollars in the treasury

[tennbengal]

that plus the trillions of dollars in the treasury

Yes. That.

[The Sybian]

Not to mention, Elon has the authority to fire the head of any agency that stands in the way of his businesses. Seriously, where the fuck is Congress? Barely a peep out of the Dems and the GOP are still willing to let Trump destroy our democracy. At what point are a handful of them going to grow a spine? What's in it for them other than not getting primaried by a Trump loyalist? What's the point of being in Congress once the Legislative branch is stripped of all power?

[tennbengal]

Not to mention, Elon has the authority to fire the head of any agency that stands in the way of his businesses. Seriously, where the fuck is Congress? Barely a peep out of the Dems and the GOP are still willing to let Trump destroy our democracy. At what point are a handful of them going to grow a spine? What's in it for them other than not getting primaried by a Trump loyalist? What's the point of being in Congress once the Legislative branch is stripped of all power?

I assume literal money. Bribes. Etc.

Or being blackmailed.

Or rooting for the end times.

Or Russian agents.

[The Sybian]

Not to mention, Elon has the authority to fire the head of any agency that stands in the way of his businesses. Seriously, where the fuck is Congress? Barely a peep out of the Dems and the GOP are still willing to let Trump destroy our democracy. At what point are a handful of them going to grow a spine? What's in it for them other than not getting primaried by a Trump loyalist? What's the point of being in Congress once the Legislative branch is stripped of all power?

I assume literal money. Bribes. Etc.

Or being blackmailed.

Or rooting for the end times.

Or Russian agents.

No need to bribe a powerless Congressperson. If nothing else, they should want to keep power in their power to take bribes.

[A_B]

Elon got everything he wants right now. Unfiltered access to information.

Yes, of course! But that doesn't preclude him from ending up on the shitlist if anyone other than TFG is seen as "running" things.

[P.D.X.]

I'm doubting that tfg can even do anything about him at this point.

[EnochRoot]

I'm doubting that tfg can even do anything about him at this point.

TFG can call in a hit on national security grounds, and there’d be nothing illegal about it.

[P.D.X.]

still overlooking that musk now controls the trillions of dollars that make our government and country go vroom

[tennbengal]

still overlooking that musk now controls the trillions of dollars that make our government and country go vroom

It’s literally insane

[degenerasian]

Trump simply wants American to get out of the nation building and alliance business. Undo all deals where the Americans have been 'ripped off' and bring industry and jobs back to America, or so he thinks. USAid is being cancelled today, not more US money going to anyone.

Not even close to "simply wants to". He'd be happy nation building when it's the Trump Canal hosted by Trump Panamanian Grand Tower. if the "building" is making more things America, well then, you fix the immigrant problem inherently.

Sure because it would become America.

Like why does America pay for 2/3rd of NATO? because we need to help protect those countries, keep them democratic. US has a larger GDP than all the members combined so its not a big deal. But Trump is an idiot. He could care less if the Soviets one day swallowed them all up unless they pay a "fair share". No more world police.

[degenerasian]

Holy crap. El Salvador is willing to take on American prisoners! I guess negative 25% tariffs for them?

[EnochRoot]

Trump simply wants American to get out of the nation building and alliance business. Undo all deals where the Americans have been 'ripped off' and bring industry and jobs back to America, or so he thinks. USAid is being cancelled today, not more US money going to anyone.

Not even close to "simply wants to". He'd be happy nation building when it's the Trump Canal hosted by Trump Panamanian Grand Tower. if the "building" is making more things America, well then, you fix the immigrant problem inherently.

Sure because it would become America.

Like why does America pay for 2/3rd of NATO? because we need to help protect those countries, keep them democratic. US has a larger GDP than all the members combined so its not a big deal. But Trump is an idiot. He could care less if the Soviets one day swallowed them all up unless they pay a "fair share". No more world police.

I don't mean to be pedantic here, but we're not "America." We're the United States. America is fucking huge: encompassing Canada down to Cape Horn.

[degenerasian]

But you're American. Nobody else is.

Should you be United Statesmen?

[Square Rob]

Honestly right now we are all bitches. Even expats.

[The Sybian]

Honestly right now we are all bitches. Even expats.

But I thought the works finally respects and loves the US now!

[sancarlos]

A Jan 6er running USAID? Why not? Another spin of the big ol’ crazy wheel!

[mister d]

Using the word "despite" perfectly captures how credulous the media is once again being.

[P.D.X.]

Also the front page of every major newspaper every day

[The Sybian]

Read and heard a lot on podcasts about what’s happening at USAID, and it’s frightening. Huge numbers of people will die because of Musk. It oversees humanitarian aid and provides lifesaving medicine. Musk immediately cut off access to funds and supplies as a cost saving method. They fired top officials, and locked all employees out of offices and computer systems, but Musks team of renegade civilians have full access. It’s terrifying and dangerous. Dems are holding meetings to pass legislation (that GOP will vote down months from now) and lawsuits are being filed that probably will take years to be heard.

The Constitution requires the funds Congress already apportioned to be spent, but that requires the DOJ to take action. Laws prevent non-governmental employees from having access, and they don’t have any security clearance, but anyone who stands up gets fired. Security guards are USAID office denied entry, and they were immediately placed on leave. Unpaid, I’m sure.

Trump declared USAID is now under Dept of State. Only Congress can do that, but Rubio is now calling the shots. Unbelievable how easy it is to overthrow our entire government. And half the country thinks this is good, because “fuck foreign aid” and Musk and Trump declared USAID employees as corrupt, radical Liberal Marxist Communists, and they just saved Billions of dollars.

I thought DOGE would be horribly destructive, but never dreamed it’d be this brutal and quick. Musk and team are living in the EOB offices to work around the clock. Good thing we’ll see a bill to stop this in a few months.

[P.D.X.]

totally counterproductive to any anti-terrorist campaigns as well. we're gonna bomb your country but good luck feeding yourself

[EnochRoot]

But you're American. Nobody else is.

Should you be United Statesmen?

I most certainly do not consider myself ‘American.’

I consider myself a citizen of the United States, and I’ve muted the national anthem every chance I could since we were marched into the second war in Iraq. Is that a distinction without a difference? Eh. I like to think I can appreciate the difference.

I’ve always thought American exceptionalism is bullshit, btw.

[sancarlos]

For the second day in a row, members of Congress tried to enter a federal building... again, of the federal government they are charged with overseeing and passing funding for... and were prevented from doing so. This seems like a goddamn problem.

[sancarlos]

So, first he says no work from home for federal workers. And, now there's this?