Bandwagoning

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:19 am

I kind of like the Mavs, but my only real NBA allegiance was hating the Miami Heat.

So now I'm gonna bandwagon the Cavs. Douchey, but that's what I'm gonna do. I like Irving and they are the closest team and Cleveland is just so tortured that I want them to win something. I'm from Pittsburgh and yet can't hate them because they've sucked so much ass.

Gotta get an Irving jersey or a Wiggins if they don't trade him - not getting a LeBron. AB, how's the Reds bandwagoning going? You get to watch Billy Hamilton on the reg which has gotta be cool.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:21 am

You're not going to have any fun. No geographical or logical allegiance and you're stepping on just as they're about to get really great.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:21 am

Wait til they get Kevin Love. Then you can get a Love jersey. And GPJ can rap about that.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:28 am

Gunpowder wrote:I kind of like the Mavs, but my only real NBA allegiance was hating the Miami Heat.

So now I'm gonna bandwagon the Cavs. Douchey, but that's what I'm gonna do. I like Irving and they are the closest team and Cleveland is just so tortured that I want them to win something. I'm from Pittsburgh and yet can't hate them because they've sucked so much ass.

Gotta get an Irving jersey or a Wiggins if they don't trade him - not getting a LeBron. AB, how's the Reds bandwagoning going? You get to watch Billy Hamilton on the reg which has gotta be cool.

I can't be sure, but I don't think you mean to be calling me a reds bandwagoner....There has been more interest and the Reds are on the TV more consistently in sports bars/restaurants - meaning they are on more than one screen these days - but most of the people I talked about baseball with were already Reds fans.

I'm a terrible NBA fan. I don't have a team, I like to watch good games/players more than good teams...so I was rooting more for the heat than the spurs. I was intersted to see if Lebron could win that title single-handedly.

If I were the cavs, I'd be real hesitant to trade Wiggins. They need a solid rebounder and Love does that, but Simmons made a compelling point that Lebron could mold Wiggins into his Pippen and then the Cavs would be set with Wiggins in his prime when Lebron starts his decline.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:29 am

If they're offering Wiggins and the T-Wolves haven't accepted yet, they're idiots.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:34 am

Post by **Sabo** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:35 am

Well, the Cavs did sign James Jones a couple of days ago.

Post by **Sabo** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:36 am

Giff wrote:If they're offering Wiggins and the T-Wolves haven't accepted yet, they're idiots.

I really, really, really, really hope the Cavs keep Wiggins, even if that means they don't get Love.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:54 am

Sabo wrote:
Giff wrote:If they're offering Wiggins and the T-Wolves haven't accepted yet, they're idiots.
I really, really, really, really hope the Cavs keep Wiggins, even if that means they don't get Love.

I fall on this side of the debate as well. Not that I give a crap about the Cavs either way. I just think that's the smart move for them.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:57 am

mister d wrote:You're not going to have any fun. No geographical or logical allegiance and you're stepping on just as they're about to get really great.

First (or maybe 2nd, one or the other) NBA game I ever attended was a Cavs game in Cleveland. And it's driveable from Pittsburgh when I return for visits. I think it works great. I'm gonna be the world's best Cavs fan!

Let's go Cavs!

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:58 am

I know nothing about the NBA but I think you get Love. You don't trade Wiggins plus, but you trade him straight up or you trade the other package. Its a star league and you're giving yourself 2 of the top ... like 7-ish?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:59 am

(The flipside bet is that Wiggins will become a surefire top 5 player. And you're not getting the positional advantage Love brings. Its almost never a good idea to trade elite young talent but this feels like the exception.)

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:06 am

mister d wrote:(The flipside bet is that Wiggins will become a surefire top 5 player. And you're not getting the positional advantage Love brings. Its almost never a good idea to trade elite young talent but this feels like the exception.)

I think Wiggins develops more playing with Lebron and getting open looks/easy buckets in transition more than in Minnesota. But If the cavs want to have a shot to win immediately, you get Love now. I think Lebron wants to win now.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:07 am

I don't "know the NBA", but from the little I do know, is there any player in the entire league you'd see as a better tandem for LeBron than Love? It just seems too perfect.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:10 am

mister d wrote:I don't "know the NBA", but from the little I do know, is there any player in the entire league you'd see as a better tandem for LeBron than Love? It just seems too perfect.

Nope. I do not. He's a better rebounder than Bosh, a better three point shooter, a worse defender(Bosh at least could mess up pick and rolls a bit), and an infinitely better passer.

The problem with getting Love is interior defense. He plays below the rim and while his rebounding numbers are good because of positioning, he isn't going to stop many big guys from scoring. However, there arent' a lot of Big guys who can dominate period, and certainly not int he eastern conference.

As strange as this sounds...Demarcus cousins is probably the only other guy close to being as good a match as Love...and Cousins may be the type of guy who needs an alpha dog like lebron to keep him in line.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:17 am

mister d wrote:I know nothing about the NBA but I think you get Love. You don't trade Wiggins plus, but you trade him straight up or you trade the other package. Its a star league and you're giving yourself 2 of the top ... like 7-ish?

I'm 2nd to last in NBA ahead of you, and it's hard to argue this but I like the idea of keeping Wiggins and then just signing a max guy next year. The Heat were so good in large part because their defense was awesome. Wiggins can help with that. Then next year add a final piece.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:19 am

AB_skin_test wrote:
mister d wrote:(The flipside bet is that Wiggins will become a surefire top 5 player. And you're not getting the positional advantage Love brings. Its almost never a good idea to trade elite young talent but this feels like the exception.)

I think Wiggins develops more playing with Lebron and getting open looks/easy buckets in transition more than in Minnesota. But If the cavs want to have a shot to win immediately, you get Love now. I think Lebron wants to win now.

I think the Cavs are already better than any team he played with pre-2010. Why not keep some of those young guys instead of building another Miami team with 3 top guys and nothing else after them?

I think if they keep Wiggins they can set themselves up for years of being the prohibitive favorite starting in 2015-2016. I'd do that.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:19 am

AB_skin_test wrote:
Gunpowder wrote:I kind of like the Mavs, but my only real NBA allegiance was hating the Miami Heat.

So now I'm gonna bandwagon the Cavs. Douchey, but that's what I'm gonna do. I like Irving and they are the closest team and Cleveland is just so tortured that I want them to win something. I'm from Pittsburgh and yet can't hate them because they've sucked so much ass.

Gotta get an Irving jersey or a Wiggins if they don't trade him - not getting a LeBron. AB, how's the Reds bandwagoning going? You get to watch Billy Hamilton on the reg which has gotta be cool.

I can't be sure, but I don't think you mean to be calling me a reds bandwagoner....There has been more interest and the Reds are on the TV more consistently in sports bars/restaurants - meaning they are on more than one screen these days - but most of the people I talked about baseball with were already Reds fans.

I'm a terrible NBA fan. I don't have a team, I like to watch good games/players more than good teams...so I was rooting more for the heat than the spurs. I was intersted to see if Lebron could win that title single-handedly.

If I were the cavs, I'd be real hesitant to trade Wiggins. They need a solid rebounder and Love does that, but Simmons made a compelling point that Lebron could mold Wiggins into his Pippen and then the Cavs would be set with Wiggins in his prime when Lebron starts his decline.

I thought you were looking for a baseball team to adopt and went Reds. Am I mistaken?

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:20 am

AB_skin_test wrote: As strange as this sounds...Demarcus cousins is probably the only other guy close to being as good a match as Love...and Cousins may be the type of guy who needs an alpha dog like lebron to keep him in line.

That could work perfectly or be the NBA's 2nd biggest trainwreck after Eddie Griffin.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:22 am

LeBron + Chris Paul would be scarier. Maybe a motivated healthy Dwight Howard. Anthony Davis. Love is up there, but the team defensive scheme better be good

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:24 am

Gunpowder wrote:
AB_skin_test wrote:
Gunpowder wrote:I kind of like the Mavs, but my only real NBA allegiance was hating the Miami Heat.

So now I'm gonna bandwagon the Cavs. Douchey, but that's what I'm gonna do. I like Irving and they are the closest team and Cleveland is just so tortured that I want them to win something. I'm from Pittsburgh and yet can't hate them because they've sucked so much ass.

Gotta get an Irving jersey or a Wiggins if they don't trade him - not getting a LeBron. AB, how's the Reds bandwagoning going? You get to watch Billy Hamilton on the reg which has gotta be cool.

I can't be sure, but I don't think you mean to be calling me a reds bandwagoner....There has been more interest and the Reds are on the TV more consistently in sports bars/restaurants - meaning they are on more than one screen these days - but most of the people I talked about baseball with were already Reds fans.

I'm a terrible NBA fan. I don't have a team, I like to watch good games/players more than good teams...so I was rooting more for the heat than the spurs. I was intersted to see if Lebron could win that title single-handedly.

If I were the cavs, I'd be real hesitant to trade Wiggins. They need a solid rebounder and Love does that, but Simmons made a compelling point that Lebron could mold Wiggins into his Pippen and then the Cavs would be set with Wiggins in his prime when Lebron starts his decline.

I thought you were looking for a baseball team to adopt and went Reds. Am I mistaken?

Yes. I've been a reds fan since i was a youngster. Ron Oester! Dave Parker! Kurt Stillwell! Tracy Jones!

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:26 am

Gunpowder wrote:
AB_skin_test wrote: As strange as this sounds...Demarcus cousins is probably the only other guy close to being as good a match as Love...and Cousins may be the type of guy who needs an alpha dog like lebron to keep him in line.

That could work perfectly or be the NBA's 2nd biggest trainwreck after Eddie Griffin.

Good one.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:26 am

Ryan wrote:LeBron + Chris Paul would be scarier. Maybe a motivated healthy Dwight Howard. Anthony Davis. Love is up there, but the team defensive scheme better be good

Davis would be a good pairing with anyone. Dude is a hell of a teammate.

And I really think cousins needs a guy who isn't afraid to tell him to calm the fuck down. A guy like Kobe or Lebron can do that.

Post by **Sabo** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:29 am

AB_skin_test wrote:Yes. I've been a reds fan since i was a youngster. Ron Oester! Dave Parker! Kurt Stillwell! Tracy Jones!

You forgot Junior Kennedy, Alan Knicely and Nick Esasky!

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:32 am

AB_skin_test wrote:
Ryan wrote:LeBron + Chris Paul would be scarier. Maybe a motivated healthy Dwight Howard. Anthony Davis. Love is up there, but the team defensive scheme better be good
Davis would be a good pairing with anyone. Dude is a hell of a teammate.

And I really think cousins needs a guy who isn't afraid to tell him to calm the fuck down. A guy like Kobe or Lebron can do that.

EdRomero · Post by **EdRomero** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:23 am

I thought Grantland did a good job on the Love/Wiggins debate. I like the idea of waiting it out to see what Wiggins is because the potential with him and LeBron is so good.

Also, it could be a bad sign that Cleveland is going after all of LeBron's buddies. I thought one of the issues with his first stint in Cleveland was the front office went after guys LeBron wanted rather than what personnel people wanted (Jamison, Shaq, Boozer). LeBron is really good at basketball, not roster building.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:43 am

EdRomero wrote:I thought Grantland did a good job on the Love/Wiggins debate. I like the idea of waiting it out to see what Wiggins is because the potential with him and LeBron is so good.

Also, it could be a bad sign that Cleveland is going after all of LeBron's buddies. I thought one of the issues with his first stint in Cleveland was the front office went after guys LeBron wanted rather than what personnel people wanted (Jamison, Shaq, Boozer). LeBron is really good at basketball, not roster building.

Yeah, meant to post that. I am on the keep Wiggins team but it is hard to argue with Andrew Sharp there.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:43 am

Yo NBA guys, is Wiggins anything like a potential Tracy McGrady type?

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:51 am

AB_skin_test wrote:Yes. I've been a reds fan since i was a youngster. Ron Oester! Dave Parker! Kurt Stillwell! Tracy Jones!

Just quibbling here, but although he did play there, I bet the percentage of baseball fans who associate Dave Parker with the Reds is super small.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:01 am

Gunpowder wrote:Yo NBA guys, is Wiggins anything like a potential Tracy McGrady type?

Not a 100% NBA guy, but my understanding of Andrew's game is he's a less offensively polished, slightly smaller, better defender, version of T-Mac.

ETA - Wiki says they're the same height.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:18 am

sancarlos wrote:
AB_skin_test wrote:Yes. I've been a reds fan since i was a youngster. Ron Oester! Dave Parker! Kurt Stillwell! Tracy Jones!
Just quibbling here, but although he did play there, I bet the percentage of baseball fans who associate Dave Parker with the Reds is super small.

First big free agent signing the Reds ever had, led their trip back to relevance after the 1982-1984 debacles. I will always remember him fondly.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:27 pm

EdRomero wrote:I thought Grantland did a good job on the Love/Wiggins debate. I like the idea of waiting it out to see what Wiggins is because the potential with him and LeBron is so good.

But with Love theoretically in your pocket, don't you need to win this gamble at like the 90th percentile success or higher and win it fast, given that you're fucking with your LeBron age curve by waiting on developing a dude who was a Canadian high schooler like 15 months ago? Its not that you need a win now, its that you're being presented with a near can't miss where the immediate and near-future upside almost assuredly trumps what you're giving up. To cross sports, this isn't like the Addison Russell deal because Russell didn't just net you Manny Machado.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:29 pm

Machado is a bad example there because of where he is on the potential / success curve. Use Stanton instead. Stanton willing to commit in a sport with such a dickhead cap that guys half of Stanton will max out.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:35 pm

mister d wrote:
EdRomero wrote:I thought Grantland did a good job on the Love/Wiggins debate. I like the idea of waiting it out to see what Wiggins is because the potential with him and LeBron is so good.
But with Love theoretically in your pocket, don't you need to win this gamble at like the 90th percentile success or higher and win it fast, given that you're fucking with your LeBron age curve by waiting on developing a dude who was a Canadian high schooler like 15 months ago? Its not that you need a win now, its that you're being presented with a near can't miss where the immediate and near-future upside almost assuredly trumps what you're giving up. To cross sports, this isn't like the Addison Russell deal because Russell didn't just net you Manny Machado.

Agreed. To me it's a no-brainier that the Cavs should offer Wiggins (assuming that they have assurances that Love will sign an extension) and the Wolves should accept their offer. The Cavs absolutely have to be in win-now mode. I think Wiggins will be really good, but if he takes 3 years to reach his potential, you risk squandering LeBron's age 30-32 seasons. (The West is still loaded, and I don't think the Cavs can win the Finals without three All-Star caliber players.) And after that, who knows if LeBron will still be the same dominant force he is now? Look what happened with Wade, who's three years older than LeBron. In 2011, he was the best player in the Finals; by 2014, he looked spent by the end of the playoffs.

EdRomero · Post by **EdRomero** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:06 pm

Joe K wrote:
mister d wrote:
EdRomero wrote:I thought Grantland did a good job on the Love/Wiggins debate. I like the idea of waiting it out to see what Wiggins is because the potential with him and LeBron is so good.
But with Love theoretically in your pocket, don't you need to win this gamble at like the 90th percentile success or higher and win it fast, given that you're fucking with your LeBron age curve by waiting on developing a dude who was a Canadian high schooler like 15 months ago? Its not that you need a win now, its that you're being presented with a near can't miss where the immediate and near-future upside almost assuredly trumps what you're giving up. To cross sports, this isn't like the Addison Russell deal because Russell didn't just net you Manny Machado.
Agreed. To me it's a no-brainier that the Cavs should offer Wiggins (assuming that they have assurances that Love will sign an extension) and the Wolves should accept their offer. The Cavs absolutely have to be in win-now mode. I think Wiggins will be really good, but if he takes 3 years to reach his potential, you risk squandering LeBron's age 30-32 seasons. (The West is still loaded, and I don't think the Cavs can win the Finals without three All-Star caliber players.) And after that, who knows if LeBron will still be the same dominant force he is now? Look what happened with Wade, who's three years older than LeBron. In 2011, he was the best player in the Finals; by 2014, he looked spent by the end of the playoffs.

I guess my apprehension is with not knowing that Love will bring immediate championships. Two things LeBron needed help with last year was a better rim protector and more help with wing defense -- Love doesn't help here. I think the Cavs can win the East this year with Love or Wiggins, but winning the finals would be dependent on who they face. Meanwhile, Wiggins was being hyped all year as the best player in the best draft since LeBron (maybe Durant). If he turns into Pippen, that could mean having a core with a run of 3 to 4 champion. I think that's worth giving up one year without Love (or less if Minny stops asking for Wiggins). If Love goes to free agency, would the Cavs have space to sign him and then they can have both? And if they can't sign Love, Marc Gasol and probably some other good big men will be free agents too.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:07 pm

EdRomero wrote:I guess my apprehension is with not knowing that Love will bring immediate championships. Two things LeBron needed help with last year was a better rim protector and more help with wing defense -- Love doesn't help here. I think the Cavs can win the East this year with Love or Wiggins, but winning the finals would be dependent on who they face. Meanwhile, Wiggins was being hyped all year as the best player in the best draft since LeBron (maybe Durant). If he turns into Pippen, that could mean having a core with a run of 3 to 4 champion. I think that's worth giving up one year without Love (or less if Minny stops asking for Wiggins). If Love goes to free agency, would the Cavs have space to sign him and then they can have both? And if they can't sign Love, Marc Gasol and probably some other good big men will be free agents too.

Love may not bring immediate championships, but I do think that adding him would make the Cavs heavy favorites to win the East. And with the West as strong as it is now, that's really all that you can guarantee. And even if Wiggins turns into Pippen, I don't think that happens in year one (or even year two for that matter).

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:16 pm

Is there a PECOTA-esque system for basketball? I'm just curious what Wiggins' median case, 75% case, best case, etc scenarios really are.

Weatherfrog · Post by **Weatherfrog** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:50 pm

Love is only 25 years old. He has 10 good years ahead of him. He is already one of the best 5 players in the NBA. You have to trade for him.

Also, he has played in Minnesota for 6 years. Cleveland wont look like that much of a shit hole in comparison. He might stay there.

rass · Post by **rass** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:58 am

Almost started a new "favorite season by a team that you don't normally root for" thread, but this should work.

The 1993 Phillies are probably my pick. Coming off the Pirates ultimately futile run, that period was my peak personal investment in baseball. I grew up in the Philly media market, graduated in 1993, and my best friend in HS was a Phillies fan, so we skipped school a couple of times to see mid-week business person specials. And they managed to beat the Braves in the playoffs, so that was cool. Anyway, RIP Darren Daulton.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:28 am

rass wrote:Almost started a new "favorite season by a team that you don't normally root for" thread, but this should work.

The 1993 Phillies are probably my pick. Coming off the Pirates ultimately futile run, that period was my peak personal investment in baseball. I grew up in the Philly media market, graduated in 1993, and my best friend in HS was a Phillies fan, so we skipped school a couple of times to see mid-week business person specials. And they managed to beat the Braves in the playoffs, so that was cool. Anyway, RIP Darren Daulton.

Mine is easy: The '95 Northwestern Wildcats. Helped that I was living in Chicago at the time, and blew out my ankle playing Ultimate the last weekend of September, so I had lots of quality couch time that fall. Really fun team to watch with Darnell Autry (RB) and Pat Fitzgerald (LB). Lost in the Rose Bowl to the Keyshawn Johnson USC team.